<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/"
	>

<channel>
	<title>Travis Seitler &#187; integrity issues</title>
	<atom:link href="http://travis.webseitler.com/tag/integrity-issues/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://travis.webseitler.com</link>
	<description>Sarasota, FL web designer &#38; developer</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:08:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<language>en</language>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>Why I Left Chesapeake Community Church in Joppa, MD</title>
		<link>http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/09/moving-on.html</link>
		<comments>http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/09/moving-on.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Travis Seitler</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Community]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[900 Trimble Rd]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[benevolence]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Chesapeake Community Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Churches]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Copley]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Covenant of Grace Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cult]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[disagreement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[integrity issues]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jason Reyes]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jim Cannon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Joppa MD]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Laurie Reyes]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ohio]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[pastors]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SGM]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sovereign Grace church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sovereign Grace Ministries]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theological Musings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tithes]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tithing]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[trust]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/09/moving-on.html</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nicole and I have left Chesapeake Community Church, and some of our friends have asked why. Considering the circumstances surrounding our leaving (and the confusion some friends have expressed regarding it) I&#8217;ve decided to address the matter here. You see, &#8230; <a href="http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/09/moving-on.html">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicole and I have left Chesapeake Community Church, and some of our friends have asked why. Considering the circumstances surrounding our leaving (and the confusion some friends have expressed regarding it) I&#8217;ve decided to address the matter here.</p>
<p>You see, I&#8217;ve been in discussions with the pastors (regarding tithing) since our pre-membership interview with Jason Reyes (soon to be the new senior pastor of <a href="http://www.cogc.org/">Covenant of Grace Church in Akron, OH</a>). Sadly, they didn&#8217;t bother to even try to answer my questions until they found out that I had <a href="http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html">posted my thoughts on the tithe</a> here at my blog. Even then, I was met with a general unwillingness to discuss my questions and concerns; rather, the conversation was <a href="http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=33">continually focused on challenging my lack of trust in and respect for them</a>. They couldn&#8217;t understand how my trust was largely dependent on their actions and approaches to my questions. You see, I <em>did</em> trust them when I joined Chesapeake in November of 2005. It was only after months of evading and ignoring my questions that I began to get exasperated with them. In the meantime, other things appeared on the radar that only added to my unease and distrust: </p>
<ul>
<li>The pastors paid themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars in 2006 (according to their own financial statement), while giving roughly $18,000 as &#8220;benevolence.&#8221; When asked about this, their response was that the issued Statement was not an accurate reflection of their financial activity.</li>
<li>The pastors refused to support from the general fund&#8211;or even to collect a &#8220;special offering&#8221; for&#8211;a family in the congregation with known serious financial needs. Meanwhile, they collected a special offering to cover <a href="http://ordinarymother.wordpress.com/2007/07/21/the-house/">moving expenses</a> for two pastors.</li>
<li>Jim Cannon (the senior pastor) personally told me in front of Jason Reyes and a Care Group leader that his preference was for my membership status to be reevaluated should I choose not to tithe to him. Later, to illustrate his rationale for this, he drew parallels with a wife not trusting her husband to handle their money. But when I pointed out that I wouldn&#8217;t/shouldn&#8217;t/couldn&#8217;t Biblically divorce my wife over such a matter, his response was that a church membership wasn&#8217;t like a marriage.</li>
<li>Jim also told me that in his study of the tithe, he had considered no extra-biblical writings on the subject of tithing penned before the Protestant Reformation. Thus, all early &#8220;Church Fathers&#8221; epistles, the Didache, Josephus&#8217; writings, and any other works which could have shed first-hand light on how the early church viewed tithing&#8230; were ignored.</li>
<li>Jim&#8217;s response was to call me a &#8220;freeloader&#8221; and claim that I had &#8220;integrity issues&#8221; when I told the pastors that not giving to Chesapeake was a matter of conscience: they had collected over $850,000 last year with, as I said before, only $18,000 (2.5%) going to those in need. (I took the money I <em>would</em> have given them, and instead gave it to organizations like <a href="http://www.compassion.com">Compassion International</a> and <a href="http://www.bloodwatermission.org">Blood:Water Mission</a>.)</li>
</ul>
<p>And in the midst of all this, the pastors tried to shut down an evangelistic effort from a Godly man in the congregation&#8212;to spend time with some other Christian men in a pub, where they could interact with people on &#8220;neutral territory&#8221; and begin to develop relationships with them. The pastors also <a href="http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=29">forbade this man to pass out copies of a Mark Driscoll book</a> to his Christian friends until Jim had approved it, and they almost banned the men in our Care Group from going on a camping trip they were organizing. Why? Because they wouldn&#8217;t get back in time for the Sunday morning service.</p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve seen, Sovereign Grace Church in Joppa, MD (their new name, as of September 12th) isn&#8217;t a local church. It really bears far more resemblance to a cult:
<ul>
<li>The leaders are domineering and in some areas tyrannical;</li>
<li>they have tried in numerous ways to psychologically manipulate the congregation;</li>
<li>they demand trust rather than desiring to show themselves worthy of it;</li>
<li>they are frightened of &#8220;their&#8221; people being exposed to &#8220;non-approved&#8221; books and ideas.</li>
</ul>
<p>So that&#8217;s why I left. I tried to reason with them for nearly two years, but it has proven fruitless. The pastors are content to continue as they have, and it&#8217;s just become too heavy a burden. It&#8217;s kind of depressing, because I love the people I know at Chesapeake, but with the mindset that many people seem to have (that &#8220;we must attend the same church or else we can&#8217;t be friends&#8221;) it seems it&#8217;ll be extremely difficult to maintain our relationships.</p>
<p>So where is the Seitler family headed? I don&#8217;t know, but I&#8217;m definitely scarred from (and scared of) this overbearing leadership, and so we&#8217;re probably looking more toward a house church than toward any other &#8220;model.&#8221; In the meantime, we&#8217;ve actually enjoyed <em>greater</em> fellowship with other believers in the past few weeks than we had when we were in &#8220;the club&#8221;&#8211;and it was mostly due to opportunities that wouldn&#8217;t have been available to us if we were attending Sunday morning meetings and Wednesday night meetings and&#8230;</p>
<p><strong>UPDATE #2:</strong> The post I linked &#8220;moving expenses&#8221; to (on a blog written by Jason Reyes&#8217; wife Laurie) has been removed since my post appeared here this morning. Just to show you there really *was* a post there (and to let you still read it), <a href='http://travis.webseitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/larie-reyes-deleted-post.jpg' title='Laurie Reyes' Deleted Post still shows up in Google Reader'>here&#8217;s a screenshot of Laurie&#8217;s Delete Post from within Google Reader</a>. It was the only place with a copy still available.</p>
<p>And here&#8217;s larger versions of the six pictures from that post (including the last one, which Jason&#8217;s actually in): <a href='http://travis.webseitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/dining-room.jpg' title='Reyes house - dining room'>1</a>, <a href='http://travis.webseitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/great-room-2.jpg' title='Reyes house - great room (2)'>2</a>, <a href='http://travis.webseitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/great-room.jpg' title='Reyes house - great room'>3</a>, <a href='http://travis.webseitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/kitchen-1.jpg' title='Reyes house - kitchen'>4</a>, <a href='http://travis.webseitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/sun-room-kitchen.jpg' title='Reyes house - sun room and kitchen'>5</a>, <a href='http://travis.webseitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/the-house.jpg' title='Reyes house - the house'>6</a>.</p>
<p>I guess this is just another example of their tendency to cover things up instead of dealing with them. </p>
<p><strong>UPDATE #2:</strong> Laurie now has <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOZ-HvyYTB0">a video on YouTube</a> showing the house.</p>
<p><strong>UPDATE #3:</strong> <a href="http://travis.webseitler.com/2008/05/when-travis-says-cult-what-does-he-mean.html">What do I mean by &#8220;cult&#8221;? Find out here.</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/09/moving-on.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>53</slash:comments>
		</item>
	</channel>
</rss>

