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	<title>Travis Seitler &#187; C.J. Mahaney</title>
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		<title>My Letter to Joshua Harris (because it&#8217;s too big to be called a &#8216;comment&#8217;)</title>
		<link>http://travis.webseitler.com/2011/07/my-letter-to-joshua-harris-because-its-too-big-to-be-called-a-comment.html</link>
		<comments>http://travis.webseitler.com/2011/07/my-letter-to-joshua-harris-because-its-too-big-to-be-called-a-comment.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 04:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Travis Seitler</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theological Musings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[C.J. Mahaney]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Godly sorrow]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[humility]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Joshua Harris]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[repentance]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sovereign Grace Ministries]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://travis.webseitler.com/?p=1840</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(This was originally posted as a comment on Josh Harris&#8217; blog. I have edited it slightly for clarity, as I seem to always think of a better way to phrase things after I click the &#8216;submit&#8217; button.) Josh, As one &#8230; <a href="http://travis.webseitler.com/2011/07/my-letter-to-joshua-harris-because-its-too-big-to-be-called-a-comment.html">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>(This was originally posted as a comment on Josh Harris&#8217; blog. I have edited it slightly for clarity, as I seem to always think of a better way to phrase things <strong>after</strong> I click the &#8216;submit&#8217; button.)</em></p>
<p>Josh,</p>
<p>As one of the former moderators for your message board (remember that old thing?), I know what a big deal it is for you to let some of <a href="http://www.joshharris.com/2011/07/why_cj_mahaney_is_taking_a_lea.php#comments">these comments</a> sit here.</p>
<p>And as a former SGM member (2 years at <a href="http://www.cornerstonechurchofknoxville.com">CCK</a>, 2 years at <a href="http://www.sovgracemd.net/">Joppa</a>), I want to impress upon you that those of us who have spoken publicly regarding our concerns with SGM&#8230; we&#8217;re not your Assyrians. We&#8217;re the donkeys to your Balaam.</p>
<p>You see, God has shown us the damage that you and other leaders are wreaking upon yourselves and your congregations. When we tried to bring this to you, it was received as sabotage—a rebellious attempt to divert you from your course—and the &#8216;rod of correction&#8217; was brought down on us.</p>
<p>We were not in the habit of doing these things—of speaking in this way about these churches and leaders we truly loved—yet that was not taken into consideration when we refused to go down the path we were being lead. No, when that happened your focus was on your &#8216;crushed foot&#8217;, and the rod of correction was once more laid against our backs.</p>
<p>And for nearly all of us, this conflict came to a point where there was nowhere left to turn—we were being pushed toward a place we knew was wrong, but all you saw was our &#8216;prideful arrogance&#8217; in refusing to go down that path. So once more we felt the sting of an ignorant rebuke.</p>
<p>And then, God gave us a voice.</p>
<p>God has used <a href="http://www.sgmrefuge.com">SGM Refuge</a> and <a href="http://www.sgmsurvivors.com">SGM Survivors</a> to make you see what you could not—what you <em>would</em> not: this whole time, while you were being so diligent to &#8216;bring Godly church discipline&#8217; to bear? <strong>We&#8217;ve been trying to save your life.</strong></p>
<p>I and others certainly have scars from those beatings. Do not waste them. <em>Please</em>, do not rush through this time of repentance! There are quite literally <strong>thousands</strong> of God&#8217;s adopted sons and daughters who have been deeply wounded by the arrogance of SGM pastors. Not only do those former and current <em>members</em> need to see a vibrant repentance, but those <em>pastors</em> need you to set an example of Godly humility for them. Up until now their primary example has been C.J., and speaking as someone who was only ever a &#8220;rank-and-file&#8221; member? They have taken his example to heart—even the worst parts, the parts you thought you were successfully &#8216;covering&#8217;.</p>
<p>It breaks my heart to (even now) see messages from SGM pastors this past Sunday, calling for mercy toward C.J. but chastisement for those who have been hurt by his actions. Please—no more favoritism! Show as much mercy toward your critics as you wish to show toward C.J., and hold Mr. Mahaney&#8217;s feet to the fire just as much as wish to do with ours.</p>
<p>Though some have given up hope of those SGM pastors ever truly repenting, many (I daresay most of us) still cling to the hope that God will grant you all repentance (and, for many, reconciliation). I have to admit, I had almost given up hope. But (for the first time in nearly five years), when I listened to your message from this past Sunday I could actually begin to imagine that we might actually be reconciled this side of Eternity. I can&#8217;t think of an adequate way to express the hope that was awakened in my soul as I listened to your &#8216;humiliation&#8217;—it was like hearing a loved one&#8217;s seemingly terminal cancer had gone into remission!</p>
<p>You have our attention, Josh. But more than that, you have our full support. Don&#8217;t squander this opportunity! Let&#8217;s work <em>together</em> to really dig up that stone and get it out of the garden for good. Please believe me: your &#8220;Assyrians&#8221; don&#8217;t seek your destruction; we&#8217;ve been crying out to SAVE YOU from destruction. We gained nothing (and lost much) from doing so:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The donkey saw me and turned aside before me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, surely just now I would have killed you and let her live.&#8221; (Numbers 22:33)</p></blockquote>
<p>So far, C.J. has only expressed <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Samuel+15.24-31">the vague &#8216;repentance&#8217; of King Saul</a>. I pray it doesn&#8217;t end there. Your message on Sunday had more the heart of <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Kings+22.11-20">Josiah&#8217;s repentance</a>, and this is far more encouraging. Thank you for taking this painful first step.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>Sovereign Grace Ministries &#8211; Church or Cult? [Quotes Week]</title>
		<link>http://travis.webseitler.com/2008/03/sovereign-grace-ministries-church-or-cult-quotes-week.html</link>
		<comments>http://travis.webseitler.com/2008/03/sovereign-grace-ministries-church-or-cult-quotes-week.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Travis Seitler</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theological Musings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[basement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[blogs]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[C.J. Mahaney]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cult]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cultic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Eric Simmons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[false teaching]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[former members]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Google]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[heresy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Larry Tomczak]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[meetings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[robe]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SGM]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Shepherding]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sovereign grace]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sovereign Grace Ministries]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sovereign Grace survivors]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[underwear]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[why I left]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://travis.webseitler.com/2008/03/sovereign-grace-ministries-church-or-cult-quotes-week.html</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I want to kick off &#8220;quotes week&#8221; on a serious note, but the Monkey song was just too darned funny. Anyway, here&#8217;s my original Monday post: &#8220;&#8230;how is it that CJ Mahaney can make 5 references to his pride and &#8230; <a href="http://travis.webseitler.com/2008/03/sovereign-grace-ministries-church-or-cult-quotes-week.html">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to kick off &#8220;quotes week&#8221; on a serious note, but <a href="http://travis.webseitler.com/2008/03/monkey-or-ape-quotes-week.html">the Monkey song</a> was just too darned funny. Anyway, here&#8217;s my original Monday post:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;&#8230;how is it that CJ Mahaney can make 5 references to his pride and arrogance in his blog, [and] that&#8217;s somehow celebrated as humility&#8230; [but Larry Tomczak] is confronted with observations of pride and arrogance, prayerfully considers these observations, repents of his sin, writes a letter to this effect that is distributed to the entire ministry, steps down from leadership, and submits to months of disciplinary consequences&#8230; [only to be considered] &#8216;disqualified&#8217; to lead a church?</p>
<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m sorry. But this woman&#8217;s posts&mdash;more than any others (b/c she was obviously involved in this process)&mdash;has convinced me that Sovereign Grace is a cult.&#8221;</p>
<p>(<a href="http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=44/#comment-4830">comment by &#8220;SGM Casualty&#8221;</a> on SGM Survivors)</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://sgmsurvivors.com/">This website</a> is blowing the lid off of the corruption and poor leadership that&#8217;s been allowed to fester in Sovereign Grace Ministries, due to years of <a href="http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=45">fear, control, and cultic tactics</a>. It&#8217;s heartbreaking to hear some of the stories from former members; moreso to hear the ensuing silence from SGM leadership.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s nasty stuff in there, folks, but C.J. <em>et al</em> seem to want to just circle the wagons. Honestly? I think that&#8217;s worse than anything that&#8217;s being said over on the blog (and new message board).</p>
<p><em>&#8220;Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead <strong>expose them.</strong>&#8220;</em> &mdash; <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:11&#038;version=47">Ephesians 5:11</a> (ESV)</p>
<p><strong>UPDATE:</strong> On Friday, March 14th, Eric Simmons spoke to the singles at Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, MD. You can <a href="http://covlifemedia.org/events_series/ONE/TheBible/The_Bible_Part1_03.14.2008.mp3">download the MP3</a> of his talk, but what I find most interesting is this particular quote (beginning at the 13:49 mark):<br />
<blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m also concerned because at this point in time, we are at the pinnacle of the Information Age. You can in an instant find tons of information on any subject you want on Google. Do you realize that Google allows you to be one step away from a lot of heresies?</p>
<p>There are a lot of heretics out there with a lot of false teachings that have blogs. And it&#8217;s phenomenal to me in our age now, that what is represented on the Internet is now seen as fact, and authority, and truth! And the reality? Most of these guys who are writing blogs are 24-year-old guys living in their moms&#8217; basement, sitting there in their underwear! That&#8217;s what they&#8217;re doing! They&#8217;ve got a robe on, and they&#8217;re just typing away. And they&#8217;re typing away their false teaching, which is honestly a bunch of garbage.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s out there! It&#8217;s just one click away.</p>
</blockquote>
<p><img style="display:block;margin-left:auto;margin-right:auto;width:500px" src='http://travis.webseitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/eric-simmons-bloggers-quote.jpg' alt='Eric Simmons: quote on bloggers' /></p>
<p>I would humbly submit that this is nothing more than fear-based propaganda. (I would also like to point out that <a href="http://www.sovgracemin.org/Blog/author/C.J.%20Mahaney.aspx">C.J. Mahaney</a>, <a href="http://www.joshharris.com/">Josh Harris</a> and <a href="http://orthodoxyunderground.blogspot.com/">Eric Simmons</a> are all bloggers&#8211;Eric doubly so, as <a href="http://newattitude.org/blog/category/erics_thoughts/">he also writes for the New Attitude blog</a>.)</p>
<p><strong>UPDATE #2:</strong> I seem to have driven the &#8220;Orthodoxy Underground&#8221; further underground, as can be attested by <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;client=firefox-a&#038;rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&#038;hs=f4c&#038;q=+site:www.blogger.com+blogger+%22orthodoxy+underground%22">Google&#8217;s cached versions of these Blogger profiles</a>. (Thanks to Elaine Hooton for pointing out that the blog was apparently taken down.)  I don&#8217;t know much of anything about the blog (it was private; you had to be pre-approved by their admins just to <em>read</em> it), but apparently (according to Google) Thabiti Anyabwile, Justin Buzzard and Ricky Alcantar were all members of the blog. So why&#8217;d they delete the whole thing, just a few days after this matter came up? <img src='http://travis.webseitler.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif' alt=':?' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><strong>UPDATE #3:</strong> Bugger. The Google Cache link doesn&#8217;t work anymore. Well, it just listed the Blogger profiles for Eric, Thabiti, Justin and Ricky (and showed them as linked to the Orthodoxy Underground site). Thanks to Dan for catching this one!</p>
<p><strong>UPDATE #4:</strong> <a href="http://travis.webseitler.com/2008/05/when-travis-says-cult-what-does-he-mean.html">What do I mean by &#8220;cult&#8221;? Find out here.</a></p>
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		<slash:comments>63</slash:comments>
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