Comments for Travis Seitler

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by JD Straw

JD Straw — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 02:40:18 +0000

Thank you for this article. I never tithed. I know better. I never ever heard tithing taught in the church until I was in my forties. The church I grew up in out in the country, never taught it, yet it was a prosperous ministry. The pastor had his own contracting business and gave his services and his money to the church freely, no salary, and he was always helping people less fortunate than he.

I later became a member of the first congregation where tithing was taught, and this was when I was in my forties. I researched the Law of the tithe and found that I understood it too well to fall into the Law of the tithe. As a matter of fact, when I was working and a member of this church, I was able to give far more than 10% and did so with joy! I never gave money as a tithe; I gave as a freewill love offering. I did so because I believed in the work that this tithe-believing church was doing. To the pastor’s credit, he didn’t use the beat-them-up approach used by most other pastors who love to preach tithe sermons; and he only preached on tithing occasionally, not enough to really get upset about it.

Among other things we did on a regular basis was that we had an on-going clothes and food ministry, a very active witness/evangelism ministry, a nursing home and hospital visiting ministry, we supported missionaries every month, we had REAL Bible studies where we could ask questions and get biblical, truthful answers to them. The only thing I saw that wasn’t answered biblically was the requirement and erroneous teachings of Law of the tithe, but the tithe seems to trip up more people than anything else, so I overlooked that error. We had such a good time in all of the rest of the Bible so I didn’t mind.

I know that it takes money to do all that we were doing in this tithe-teaching church, so I gave with pleasure and wished I’d had even more to give. We were doing Kingdom works and I loved it! Our pastor didn’t use church money to go on trips all over the USA and the world, he had an older car, and he also had a job —and so did his wife.

He is dead now and it has been difficult for me to find another church where the tithe is not being preached, demanded, and shoved down our throats almost every sermon.

I recently got so tired of long harsh sermons on tithing I left the church to try to find one that taught the entire word of God instead of sermons on tithing all the time.

It’s difficult to find a church where the pastors aren’t always beating the congregation up about tithing, and what’s worse than that, these men usually aren’t good illuminators and expositors of the word anyway (watered down skim milk and no meat). They love money, big cars, quarter- to three-quarters of a million dollar homes, flashy jewelry and are worldly. They’re not shepherds, they are pulpit pimps and I’m not going to be pimped.

I was laid off 3 years ago and never could find another job, however, I was old enough to retire and draw social security, so it worked out okay for me, however, I can no longer afford to give the kind of money I was giving when I was working because I simply don’t have it. I lost my home and my car after I lost my job, and now ride in an old car with 132,000 miles on it, praying for it to go and bring me back without breaking down on the side of the road. Adding to my situation is the fact that I also have a few family members and one dear friend who are unemployed but not old enough to retire, so I help them out as best I can every month with what little I have.

Please forgive the lengthiness of my comments. Thanks!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Ivonne

Ivonne — Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:42:57 +0000

Thank you for your article – it surely is a “sour” topic to say the least. I have been struggling with the tithing issue for a while – i am fully aware that EVERYTHING I have comes from God and I thank Him daily for all my blessings. Im a single mother of 2 working full-time. The biggest issue with tithing is that the pastor of the church I attend earns a salary of $1MM year plus over $200,000 for expenses (allegedly related to traveling to spread the Word of God, etc). The pastor has said that his salary amount is awarded by a group of individuals who research compatible salaries of other pastors in similar churches. Why not go to another church?? Because then I’m labeled a “church hopper” and in the town I live in (Miami, FL), it seems the norm for most churches (feel free to recommend a Bible-Teaching Church in this area). I do admit, my church has an AMAZING kid’s program and though it is mostly ran by volunteers. I have been tithing (again, very challenging being a single mother) but my reasoning is that it belongs to God and I want to be in obedience with His word. However, I feel that due to the pastor’s extravagant lifestyle, salary, etc., maybe my tithing should go elsewhere e.g. St. Jude’s Children’s Hospital or to friends/family members of mine that I know are struggling to make ends meet – but is this something God approves of – any insight on this would be greatly appreciated. And of course the selfish part of me says “why should I continue to contribute to someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I struggle at times raising my 2 kids” … I know of a family at our church that was recently left homeless and I don’t recall the church providing them with monetary assistance nor asking the congregation for a special donation, things like that I don’t understand.

Comment on A 2000-Year Old Modern-Day Parable by Harv Eker

Harv Eker — Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:34:31 +0000

No wonder you are broke!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Dabo

Dabo — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:10:58 +0000

Travis, i also have been worried over the this issue and its effect on my income\savings and actually giving to the needy/family members. from my point of view i think in the time of Moses and Malachai where the issue of tithing is more pronounced, the people of israel were under stiff economic periods, that they needed a collective effort not just to build the temple of God but provide for the needy, so the issue of Tithing was the only means for total cooperation from all the citizens. it was a form of our present day taxation to support our government. but after these periods of turmoil there was no need for these payments, hence the coming of Christ to abolish all these laws and show us a different view of God the Father and provider. I stay at home with my mum and sometimes im not able to pay my stipends for the up keep of the house, and she does it without blinking an eye, so i wonder if my earthly mum could do so, then i wonder why i must be warned that the all loving Father proffessed by our all accepted saviour Jesus, would send devourers any month i dont pay my tith as preached…

Comment on Sovereign Grace Ministries – Church or Cult? [Quotes Week] by Eileen

Eileen — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:52:02 +0000

I attended an SGM for a few years. My first month or so I was very uncomfortable. I couldn’t exactly identify it, but it felt very, very “strict.” Like I was in parochial school. After awhile I became “accustomed” to (the first stages of brainwashing), and rather liked their emphasis on service. There were/are some very nice people in that church. All well meaning from what I could tell. Still, I felt like a 12 year old even though I was in my 30′s and had a small child of my own. I was bothered by the unsolicited correction and rebuke that was a regularity. People who felt they had carte blanche right to “speak into” my life to “correct” me. I definitely had the impression that if I didn’t accept their “loving” rebuke then I was rebellious and unteachable. I actually believed this. If I went through any kind of personal pain I was told God was “disciplining” me. Yeah, I wanted to run RIGHT to God with my pain under those circumstances! I have to give one of the pastors credit – he did try to tell me God was protecting me and he was compassionate. It was the well trained body that were extremely quick to rebuke and correct. What I didn’t appreciate most of all was feeling invalid and like a bad person. I didn’t appreciate feeling like I was in rebellion for not “receiving” the “correction.” After a few years of this I left. And believe me, I was SCARED. That is NOT normal. I felt like God was going to kill me for leaving. I literally felt that way! I felt like God would NEVER bless my life ever, ever again for getting out from underneath his “covering” in that church. My attitude was bad. I was leaving with a bad attitude. I was not submitting. I was so guarded going to other churches. I refused to get too close or involved with the body. I never wanted to be put in a situation again where I was being being scrutinized and had constant uninvited intrusion. So for years I felt that the reason I couldn’t find a comfort zone in church is because I left SGM with my bad attitude! After about ten years of floating around and trying to find a place I finally went back to SGM. I figured I would go back, repent, make things right and all would be well. Nope. I had to DRAG myself to church on Sundays. And I still felt no connection. I gave it up again after about a year and finally found a church I enjoy. It was absolutely marvelous to find that I was not the only one who went through this, who felt like this, who SURVIVED this. There is much more to tell, but I don’t feel it’s necessary to get into all the details. Suffice it to say that this is a huge lesson in what church is not supposed to feel like. I wish I had learned it earlier. I wish I had not carried the guilt for so long. After discovering these blogs I know I can walk away with no more guilt, shame or fear. No true Christian wants to believe they are rebelling against God. No true Christian wants to think they are in perpetual, unrepentant sin. This is how I felt FOR YEARS. No more. I can move on. And for those of you who either don’t understand this or believe that the people dealing with this situation personally are “wrapped in a cocoon of resentment and pride” I would say to you that YOU are behaving just like SGM and the only one wrapped in that cocoon is YOU. There is no compassion coming from a so-called vision from the Lord like that. None at all. That’s not God. And it wasn’t God constantly making me feel ashamed and afraid either.

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Paul

Paul — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:28:41 +0000

Well Travis, I’m not a pastor and will not receive in any way. I’m a giver. I am lucky enough to make a lot of money (in Belgian terms, americans have way more) but here’s the thing. Churches aren’t that big in belgium. and I’m talking on average 30 people. There’s an extreme anti religious spirit in belgium. Our church isn’t that big yet even, with average 15 people half of those are students without an income. My pastor works for his own needs. But tell me something, do you think it’s fair that our pastor litterally works from the break of dawn to almost midnight daily and still has an income so low that he has to pray to God every month that he’ll get by. The bible says the worker is worthy of getting payed. But we also need a ‘social security’ if you will for the poor and the widows and let’s not forget, the rent for the church building needs to be payed (you can argue that this should’n't come from tithes but it has to come from somewhere or else we have no building) . Tithing is a good principle a good start. But if you all can’t have the love to give to your pastors and the needy. Or worse, if you’re yammering about giving 10% of your income back to God who technically already owns all of it. Then you need to look yourselves in the mirror and see if you like the person you’re seeing. I remember a scripture where this old and poor lady gives almost all she has, it wasn’t a lot, but it was to her and Jesus was very positive about her. The only reason pastors need to use the tithing arguement (which in our church is not used to pay the pastor nor do all the people actually tithe, probably few actually do) is because the people are too selfish to give the pastor what’s coming to him. And does that mean he needs a mercedes, no ! But he needs to be able to at least get by. FYI Paul didn’t want to take the money they were offering him. But read 1 Timothy 5 17-18 : Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” As for the peoeple who can’t tithe cheerfully, then don’t do it. Imagine going to God and saying and don’t wanna give you this;, but I guess I have to. I’m sure he’ll be overjoyed.

Comment on John Piper is Bad by Travis Seitler

Travis Seitler — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 03:13:44 +0000

What do I think?

I think I posted this a little over five years ago, so your question isn't very timely;
I think he's being just as "fundamentalist" there as the Fundamentalists he says he can't support -- they're just being dogmatic in different directions
I think creation doesn't "look old", so much as it would have to be old according to current scientific theories;
I think most people in this world have views I would disagree with, and it would be both shortsighted and arrogant of me to disassociate from them over those issues despite our agreement--and their wisdom--on other issues.

Happy New Year!

Comment on John Piper is Bad by Kevin Spengler

Kevin Spengler — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:44:19 +0000

What do you think of John Piper’s comments on the earth is billions of years…”Whatever science says it is, it is…”?

“In verse 1, “In the beginning he made the heavens and the earth,” he makes everything. And then you go day by day and he’s preparing the land. He’s not bringing new things into existence; he’s preparing the land and causing things to grow and separating out water and earth. And then, when it’s all set and prepared, he creates and puts man there.

So that has the advantage of saying that the earth is billions of years old if it wants to be—whatever science says it is, it is—but man is young, and he was good and he sinned. He was a real historical person, because Romans 5 says so, and so does the rest of the Bible.”

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/what-should-we-teach-about-creation

This is were you get into the problem that you would have to believe that death and dying occurred before original sin of man and that suffering, and dying in the world wasn’t caused by man. If you try to mix evolution with the Bible, it will blow your theology apart.

Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day.

Jesus Christ said in Mark 10:6…”But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.” Here, Christ is saying that they were created at the beginning.

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Harold

Harold — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:41:12 +0000

David:
A lot of pro tithes people use Abraham as an example to justify tithing but you need to read the whole part. Abraham gave 10% of what he got back from the war and the other 90% he gave back to the rightful owners. This was a one time act and Abraham never personally gained anything from this war but he also never gave anything from his own resources, at least I haven’t found where its recorded. I beleive in church organization both corporately and spirtually. I beleive a church should operate responsibily, fiscally and in a business like manner and where there is also freedom of worship. I beleive the church memberhip should support the operations of the church work, including a full time pastor salary through their
personal abilities, skills and financial support. I use the words financial support because tithes in the scriptues was agriculturally based and I haven’t found where agriculture has been changed to money but if you know where the change happened I would like to know because it seems like thats where the argument comes into this type of discussion.

Comment on “If among you, one of your brothers should become poor” by Pocket Lining in the Church | truthunvailed

Pocket Lining in the Church | truthunvailed — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 20:20:51 +0000

[...] 15:7-11 (which I wrote about recently) provides the framework for all God-glorifying giving, and serves as the “spirit of the law” [...]

Comment on Why I Left Chesapeake Community Church in Joppa, MD by Tithing is Theft! | truthunvailed

Tithing is Theft! | truthunvailed — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 20:17:06 +0000

[...] being the case, a Christian pastor ought not presume to live off of the tithes of his people. If a tithe is requested of the congregation, then Biblically it needs to be food, and it needs to [...]

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Charles Oladipo

Charles Oladipo — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 07:55:10 +0000

A lot has been said about the issue of tithe. I have struggled with it myself thinking am i bringing myself under the law again if i tithe and if i don’t tithe the next time i am subjected to a curse. I have always comforted myself with Galatians 3:13 about ” Curse is everyone that is hung on a tree ” . He Himself took upon our curse for wrongdoing. I have battled on several ocassion on whether i should give to a brother in need or an institution that is the ” church “. For many of us giving is not an issue but under what spirit ?

Comment on Walt Disney Comics #666 by Joe

Joe — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:17:43 +0000

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Comment on Walt Disney Comics #666 by Joe

Joe — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:17:24 +0000

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Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Eddie

Eddie — Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:37:50 +0000

Here is a great short article by John MacArthur on this subject.

http://www.christianity.com/Christian%20Foundations/Theological%20FAQ/11532196/

Comment on When Travis says “cult,” what does he mean? by Koolaid Free

Koolaid Free — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:10:21 +0000

Taylor, reading your story bring tears to my eyes. I am sorry that you were ex-communicated by those self righteous people. I too was ex-communicated for failing them just one too many times. They ran out of grace for me. I’m still trying to piece it all together. After discovering SGM Survivors, SGM Refuge, I have finally started breathing again. I have attempted to write my own story, but I’m not there yet. Taylor, there is life outside of CLC. I’m learning that slowly myself. All I can say is that I’m so glad to be out of there(CLC).
Just remember, maybe CLC didn’t love you, but God loves you. God loves you because He is love. You can’t give what you don’t have. CLC was just that.

Comment on My Letter to Joshua Harris (because it’s too big to be called a ‘comment’) by scott

scott — Wed, 21 Sep 2011 21:15:24 +0000

Where do you attend church now?

Comment on Sovereign Grace Ministries – Church or Cult? [Quotes Week] by Thomas

Thomas — Mon, 12 Sep 2011 01:28:07 +0000

I went to SG in Apex, NC for 15 years and I remember vividly what they did to Larry T, and Dan Stoldorff. I was 11 and never understood, but do now. Giving my opinion all hearsay aside, SG is a cult and breed so that their kids can breed, they smoke some funny stuff in the inner sanctum of SG. If they ask you to drink the koolaid…don’t.

Comment on Are You A Donaldist? by RWB

RWB — Wed, 07 Sep 2011 19:13:29 +0000

And there would be no Mickey without Oswald the Lucky Rabbit.

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by DONNA PEITZ

DONNA PEITZ — Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:39:16 +0000

i recently joined the lds church(mormon) i am on disability social security ever since i started tithing i have borrowed from cash advance to make up what i cant pay my bills i was poromissed by membewrs of the church if i tithed GOID would bless me and i would be able to pay the bills with the blessiongs he would give me i asked GOD for forgiveness fir not tithing and felt a release from him yet i wanted to go to the temple and was told i could not becquse i missed a month of tithing GOD himself ask me to join this church when i ask for help i.e. electric bill and now i have no water i was told that the church encourages us to ask family members i am not keen on my family i already owe 800.00 to a foster brother to fix car and furnace how can a person show proof to a church soooo set on making its people tithe that it hurts the poor people yes i have spent money on buying birds to start a buiseness i could not do this if i was to tithe i can not sleep because of this pproblem help thank u DONNA LEE

Comment on Sovereign Grace Ministries – Church or Cult? [Quotes Week] by SGM Fan

SGM Fan — Mon, 25 Jul 2011 17:27:51 +0000

I posted a sincere comment on the “Survivors” blog site and you should see the hate and pride and self rightousness of those who responded. The Lord gave me a picture regarding those “survivors”…The Lord gave me a picture of them as wrapped in a cocoon of resentment and pride. I was hoping to speak into thier lives to help them break free of this bondage, but was disappointed at the lack of grace.

Comment on Longs Park has a Petting Zoo! by dakota

dakota — Sun, 24 Jul 2011 20:41:01 +0000

that pig is so cute i want it as a pett

Comment on My Letter to Joshua Harris (because it’s too big to be called a ‘comment’) by Steve240

Steve240 — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 15:47:34 +0000

Travis thanks for your post here. The latest statement by the SGM Board is really disheartening.

I posted a comment on Josh’s blog a few days ago that I never thought would be posted was. This is what I said:

I previously commented on how sad it was for Mahaney to assume he would be at the Pastors’ conference coming up later this year and stand there with Larry Tomczak etc. That shouldn’t be something for him to decide after all he has done.

My thought was why is Mahaney even smugly so sure that there will be a pastors’ conference later this and for that matter that Sovereign Grace won’t implode before the scheduled date of the pastors’ conference? Does Mahaney not realize what affect his sin and the sin of the other SGM Leaders that didn’t do anything about his sin might have on SGM?

Harris did good a job on Sunday night of shoring up at least his church from implosion but that isn’t a guarantee that it still won’t happen. It is still quite possible that CLC and/or SGM may implode or have a big split. This is especially probable when you hear how smugly SGM Fairfax and SGM Richmond (Kingsway) Leaders took this revelation about Mahaney.

It is appalling to read where Mahaney to be making all these assumptions. It is like he is saying I confessed my sin of deception that went on for 14 years, said there are problems we need to address, reconciled with Tomczak so things will just continue. Mahaney may find things might not work this way.

It might serve Mahaney well (play on SGM terms) to do some reading on David and the consequences that happened as a result of David’s sin with Bathsheba. The effect of David’s sin both on himself and Israel was quite severe. Nathan prophesied that what David did in private others were going to do to his concubine in broad daylight and it happened. David found himself having to flee etc. As I recall it also caused a civil war in Israel.

Does Mahaney not even think that some similar type of judgement might happen to him and SGM as a result of his sin? It sounds like he doesn’t even think there is a possibility. How sad.

It is encouraging to hear Josh call for fasting and prayer. It is a shame you don’t hear about this from pastors of other SGM Churches, especially Kingsway and Fairfax. Plead to God for mercy. Kingsway has already seen some judgment with loss of members. The reports about Fairfax Leaders is pretty sad.

Comment on Revisiting “The Tithe” by M Green

M Green — Wed, 09 Jun 2010 16:01:37 +0000

Seems to me that Martin Luther worked hard to get the Bible OUT of the priests hands and give it to the people to read, and the people put it BACK in the priests hands to have it read and digested for them.

Anyway, I’m putting this in my list of verses to remember. Thanks.

Also, did you ever post the letter you wrote to the pastor there? It might be too personal so it’s likely you didn’t. But if you did, I’d like to read it. Any chance of pointing me towards it? IF you posted it, that is.

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by M Green

M Green — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:05:56 +0000

I found your site because I’m always trying to read more on this subject. Yours is the first that hits all that I found in the Bible for myself nearly 2 years ago. Many that I found hits several of these points, but adds weird stuff that is more opinionated commentary than actual scripture, so I was happy to run across your post.

One thing I’ve never understood is how people can say that we are free from all the old laws except this one. You know, Jesus also told the sick man in Matt 8:1-4 to go and offer a sacrifice, but no one uses THAT as an excuse to offer up an animal as sacrifice.

If anyone really reads the New Testament for themselves it becomes impossible to see that this is more of a picking and choosing of the old laws that none of us are under anymore.

I got the Matt 23:23 verse flashed up on the projector screen for a while when I was still attending the big church. Noticeably absent (and represented with … in it’s place) was WHAT was mentioned what the Pharisees tithed. Sorry, but that’s just underhanded.

I’ve even heard that if we don’t tithe, we aren’t forgiven. Why? Because we are paying for our salvation?

As far as how a church is supposed to run without relying on the 10% income they can rely on from their members instead of receiving in faith (like they tell us to do as we fork over our children’s lunch money for tithe), well, I suspect that our churches should look more like what Paul had going on. I find it appalling that we are to go out and make disciples of all men, but those of us not at the head of a large church are expected to do so because it’s an all consuming flame of passion that we have in our savior, but that pastors of large churches get to claim payment for their “obeying” part of the commandment. How is that NOT like a Pharisee?

And the cheerful giver verse? Well you have to read the WHOLE verse:
“Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give WHAT HE HAS DECIDED IN HIS HEART TO GIVE, not reluctantly or UNDER COMPULSION, for God loves a cheerful giver.
-2 Corinthians 9:6-7

No mention of HOW MUCH to give, only HOW to give–generously and what you decided in your heart to give. Yet this has been quoted at that church I stopped going to as a reason to tithe 10%. The Pastor actually said that it meant that if you give you WILL be cheerful, so give and be cheerful.

Anyway, I hate the thought of stirring the pot on this blog again in 2010, as I’m sure that after 3 years you’re probably ready to let it die down. But, what you said and how you handled the comments (in the early years–that last one was a bit snappish, though understandably so–the hypocrisy of mentioning it in my own somewhat snappy comment is not lost on me, I promise) is an example to us all. And, you guided us all biblically–you ONLY quoted what was in the bible, AND you told us to search it out ourselves. We should all be doing that.

This is important work you’ve started. You’re going to face naysayers a lot. But, none of these naysayers have quoted any of the references in context to the meaning. You have.

Now, onto your other posts…

Comment on Sovereign Grace Ministries – Church or Cult? [Quotes Week] by Matt

Matt — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:18:38 +0000

This is a bummer. I honestly do not believe you are right about these guys. They are together for the Gospel of Our Lord. Its sad that there is disunity in the Church because people fear cultish tactics. And honestly. I have seen no cultish tactics at all whatsoever. I am encouraged to read the Word and am under Biblical teaching. Its sad that you preach disunity on the grounds of fear. I do admit I have seen or heard of things that werent the best choice. But that happens everywhere. I think the most important thing is that the Gospel is preached and people are getting saved.

Comment on Sovereign Grace Ministries – Church or Cult? [Quotes Week] by Travis

Travis — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:42:52 +0000

Chad, sounds like you need to go back and listen again to what your own pastor said last Sunday. We have a shepherd. His name is Jesus. Anyone else who claims the title is trying to usurp His role in our lives.

Comment on Sovereign Grace Ministries – Church or Cult? [Quotes Week] by Chad Brewer

Chad Brewer — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:34:00 +0000

I see two things here: people who don’t accept that they are SHEEP. people who don’t accept that they have a SHEPHERD. Is Christianity a cult? If you say no, then you have no clue about the nature of Christianity. Christianity is a cult, so much so, that Pliny (ancient figure writing to Caesar) equates Christianity with the Mystery Cults of his day. The term cult is bad in our day, but not then, and we are all part of a cult, no matter what we believe. cult(ure)…The sheep/shepherd analogy that Christ uses is cultic language. The real actual issue is not whether or not SovGrace is a cult, but whether or not a person is going to submit to the gifts and offices that Christ has set up in His Church. This is the post-modern mindset.
I have read of definite abuses of pastors in ALL churches. This doesn’t mean anything. Of course they would abuse their position, they are sinners.
Since, probably, no one here is trained in the Bible, nor called to pastor a church, but called to be a dumb sheep of God, think of Peter, our great example of the perfect pastor, and then rethink your position. We get mad when people make Christianity about what the Christian does, why aren’t we applying the same to SovGrace. C.J. or Simmons, et.al. are not Sovereign Grace Ministries, their message is.
I attend Grace Church San Diego, a Sovereign Grace affiliated church. I’m not a proud member of a cult, but a believer in the message that Christianity spreads: the Gospel. I know that you are proud of that too.
May God bless us with the remembrance of what His Son has done by the power of the Holy Spirit for His Own glory,
Chad Brewer
chadlovesjesus@hotmail.com

Comment on Why I Left Chesapeake Community Church in Joppa, MD by CCCReject

CCCReject — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 04:27:33 +0000

Wow… just stumbled across this old post of yours. I grew up in CCC…lived it, breathed it,(yep.. did the school K-12) and knew no other world until one day I told Jim Cannon that I would not do something he asked me to do unless he could provide me with scriptural foudation for what he and other members of the leadership were requiring…something I was unspeakably uncomfortable with. They could not. Neither could Dave Harvey. To make a long story short I was forbidden to fellowship with CCC from then on. I was 19 at the time, and no words can describe the emotional damage done to me by the spiritual abuse at the hands of the leadership I had been raised to trust and revere. My peers in the church, the only friends I had ever known, quickly turned their backs on me and this, more than anything else completely destroyed me. This was back in the late 90′s… well before your experience with this church and certainly well before it changed its name to laughably include the word “grace”. It sounds like not much has changed since.
But praise God! Getting kicked out of that church was a huge blessing in disguise! While I still struggle with the pain of rejection and the sadness of lost relationships from my experience, once I was forced from the cult-like (yes, even if you dont want to go so far as call it a cult, it’s certainly cult-like) atmosphere, I began to experience a God far greater and more loving than I even could have possibly imagined. He revealed Himself and his incredible love to me in ways I never could have experienced in the stifling world of CCC.
That church was, and probably still is, full of well intended people who love God and genuinely desire relationship with Him. Those of us who have come out wounded and battered from the reach of this very imperfect, yet very earnest church, can only “move on” by extending forgiveness for the abuse inflicted and love for the people left behind. Thank God that he is BIG enough and GRACIOUS enough to cover ALL of our errors and sins. My road to forgiveness and healing has been a very long one… I still struggle with even seeing certain individuals from that church who wounded me the greatest.. but I have learned on the outside what I never could have learned on the inside – GRACE!

Comment on Dunbar’s General Store by DLE

DLE — Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:15:33 +0000

Travis,

Lawyers are ruining this country. Ruining it. We min too many of them and they subsequently have to find a way to make money, so they sue and make stupid laws. And since our government is made up of lawyers, it explains everything.

This is not to say that we don’t need lawyers, but we need a whole lot less them, plus we need to find ways of keeping them from making stupid laws, keep them from shoving money toward their cronies, and so on.

Comment on Why I Left Chesapeake Community Church in Joppa, MD by Rafael

Rafael — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:34:09 +0000

I just came across the Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, definition of the sovereign grace movement, and it is very interesting to say the least. They discuss the flaws in the movement and talk about why several people have left the movement, along with the reasons Larry Tomczak left. Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Grace_Ministries

Comment on Sovereign Grace Ministries – Church or Cult? [Quotes Week] by Mark Lickliter

Mark Lickliter — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:05:29 +0000

I wish I lived close enough to Gaithersburg to attend CLC. Our family lived in Maryland for 2 years and we attended CLC for three months and SLC for a year. Both were awesome. I would say we liked CLC better, but it was a 45 minute drive to get there so we decided to pick a church that was closer. If you didn't like SG, then you don't know what a good church looks like. A cult by definition departs from the essentials of the historic Christian faith as codified in the creeds. SG does not depart from the essentials, so they are not a cult. Just because you dislike them or do not agree with them, doesn't mean they are a cult. No church is perfect. Find one that you agree with and stop being such a whiner and complainer! Read Josh Harris' book Stop Dating the Church or Mark Dever's 9 Marks of a Healthy Church. These lay out biblical principals for finding a good church. Until then, stop being that pathetic person that Eric Simmons was talking about complaining in their underwear. I tend to be critical and a complainer too, but it will never help your walk with Christ or the building up of others to keep selfishly "venting" all day. My kids get a spanking for whining. Maybe you need a good spanking!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Josh Sowin

Josh Sowin — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:46:42 +0000

Great galations, what a thread!

And in my experience, the best internet trolls are Christian leaders. They are AWESOME at it!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Travis

Travis — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 01:04:00 +0000

Five minutes of fame? Dude (or Dudette)! It’s more like three years …of infamy! Just when I think the post has finally run its course, a new Pharisee comes along and stirs up the pot (and Google’s indexes) all over again.

BTW, I asked my pastor to meet with me to talk about it multiple times over the course of seven months before writing this post. (I let him know when I published it, and he suddenly found time in his schedule to meet with me, less than a week after that.)

BTW, the reasons I listed for going are the only reasons that have any New Testament basis. Go ahead and show me some other Biblical purpose for the ekklesia.

BTW, “the head of that house” is Jesus.

BTW, Jesus went to a place with hostile leaders who were deceiving and enslaving the people under them. Lots of Christians do it, too. It’s called “being a missionary.”

BTW, in his letter to the Corinthians, Paul’s “sowing” is providing financial relief to suffering, poverty-stricken believers in another part of the world. It bears absolutely no resemblance to upgrading sound systems and improving parking lots for our own group’s meeting house. It bears all sorts of resemblance to what I described in my post as the purpose of the tithes, and what Christians ought to be doing with their money now that we’re no longer under the obligation to tithe. Huh. Imagine that!

BTW, you “can’t believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis,” yet you went ahead and did it yourself. Nice. Also, “so many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it”? Good job not being a hypocrite there (since that’s kinda the exact thing you’ve done with both of your comments here).

BTW, Galatians 3:10.

FUN FACT: Some of the worst internet trolls hold leadership positions in their churches.

G’night!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by TITHER

TITHER — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 01:01:59 +0000

GALATIONS 3:28

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by tither

tither — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 00:56:34 +0000

I usually don’t respond to discussions of this such and if it weren’t for some research, I’d never even come across this site. However, I must say that I think this is one of the reasons that so many non believers don’t bother coming to church or getting saved. So many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it. If I were still of the world and listening to Christians claiming most preachers to be liars while poking out their chests trying to prove to everyone how much they know or simply their interpetation of the word(because thats all any of this is), I’d say “why bother” too.

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by TITHER

TITHER — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 00:06:22 +0000

I can’t believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis. But Im glad he was able to get his five minutes of fame. I found it interesting that he would never answer the questions about financial difficulties. Read 2 Corinthians 9:6-8. The point is Travis, everybody is entitled to believe whatever they believe. Just like Beth said, why be apart of a church if you don’t agree with leadership. You can still care about the other members while attending a church that you are in agreement with. Because the fact of the matter is, you aren’t doing that house any favors by creating conflict and telling others they shouldn’t listen to what the head of that house is teaching.
And you told Beth that she seems to be looking 4 a social club, but look at the reasons you listed for going. I can’t imagine why someone would choose to attend a church they felt was lying to them, and try to be apart of those different ministries if not just to socialize.
And it makes me curious why you chose to blog about this online instead of asking your Pastor to show you what he’s teaching in the word. Is it because you’re afraid he may be able to show it to you, and then you would have to actually pay your tithes. Well I haven’t found in the word where it says its mandatory to pay your tithes. But in 2 Corinthians 9:6-8, it does say that if you sow sparingly, you will reap sparingly. And that the Lord loves a cheerful giver. So if its not for you, than just don’t do it. That’s between you, God, and your finances.

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Erica

Erica — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:48:53 +0000

I know it is now 2010, but this has been on my heart to research for a little while. I asked my mom , who is now a pastor, if the Bible says to give 10%, and she said, it does. It made me really furious..lol, but she is my mom , and I have to respect her. I kindly told her, the Bible doesn’t say that, and I believe people have really misused that scripture to “rob” God’s people so to speak..I could go on and on, but this just confirms what I already believe. People are struggling yet still paying tithes, but God’s word clearly says, in all thy getting, get understanding. We need to KNOW God’s word for ourselves.

Comment on Why I Left Chesapeake Community Church in Joppa, MD by Rafael

Rafael — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 16:11:55 +0000

You know, it’s funny that I came across this page…I was checking out CCC online and found it. And, let me say that I am not in the least bit surprised. I left there I guess it was the end of 2005, and I see that all the issues present then are alive and well! The church has good and bad people in it, as everywhere-but the leadership under Jim is a debacle to say the least. His pride, hypocrisy, and arrogance shines like the noonday sun. And don’t you dare go up against him, because he will attempt to destroy you. I remember him threatening to kick me off of prison ministry and usher staff because I did not fall in line with his desires. Well, I didn’t then, and I don’t now, and I really could not care less what comes out of that scene, or what people there think. I still say the same thing!! It is a caricature of a system that is driven by fear of man, while all the time preaching against it. I left and never looked back. As far as benevolence, let me tell ya what the SOB did: I was arrested for robbing an old lady, case of mistaken identity. Cut and dry, I was at a children’s church party in my honor when the crime was committed. They caught the real guy later. Well, we ended up doing a little collection, and before doing that, Jim asked me if I was really innocent, or did I do it? That is the way he thinks. And Jason is no better, lol, what a clown!!! But let me just say that looking back, I had the same issue as them, which was pride and arrogance, self-righteousness. It’s just that they were the ones in charge. So I rebelled, much like you are doing, but ultimately it did no good. There were no winners. I would say just get out of there like you are then let it go. Those idiots will get theirs, and they already are-because a proud man’s desires are insatiable. Their punishment is carried everyday as a burden. They look over their shoulders, try to protect and preserve what is theirs, and seek to destroy anyone in the way. But they really aren’t all that-just some arrogant guys who are selfish. They are not even given a second glance in the real world. And it’s a dog’s life!!! They can have it. And I am scarred by their bad leadership too, and will take time, but I did learn alot. Look, I do applaud you, and I say more power to ya…and screw them clowns!! They can kiss my rear, so pucker up Jim and Jason!! If I were you, I would just move on. They are not gonna yield, DEFINITELY are not worth it, and the fight could be costly.

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Jen

Jen — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:32:58 +0000

It isn’t that I haven’t read my Bible, it is just that people interpret it many different ways & both sides have compelling arguments. I will say that over the past few weeks I have changed some things. I have started giving directly to people in need, whom God lays on my heart…. The joy that I have from giving in this way cannot compare to dropping a check in a bucket at church. However, I do feel like I need to continue to support my church but not with a set amount and it will start taking a back seat to the ground level giving that directly helps people in need. I have seen my blessings increase and I truly LOVE God using me to help people like this. I have a peace about this and I truly feel that God is happy with this path.

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 05:12:59 +0000

Jen, Jeremiah’s prophecy has now been fulfilled for God has written his laws on our hearts not on tablets of stone. Outward rituals and law-keeping was only a type and shadow of the better Covenant of Grace through faith in the payment Jesus made. Once that is accepted with have free access to forgiveness, eternal life and are free to be healed as in He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquity and by His stripes we are healed. Does it say by paying your tithes you are healed? Heck NO! Go and learn what paid in full truly means. It covers 100 percent of any balance we were owing. You do not have to tithe for favor–Jen you got all the favor you needed freely at the Cross. Just ask God in Jesus name and he will do it. That is if you are abiding in Him. I think you truly are!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 05:04:14 +0000

Jen that is good that you respect your Pastor but he is only a man and therefore capable of error. He is not infallible, perfect nor does your Pastor walk on water. What it tells me when I hear people struggling over this issue is that they have not read their Bible in detail esp. the New Testament. When were you a Jew living under the Old Covenant laws in the first place. Simple logic will tell you this Malachi curse does not apply to you or any Gentile. The Apostle Paul never mentioned the word tithe. Did you know he preached grace and not law. The law only pointed to our transgressions of the law to make us see our need for a Savior. If you are speeding down the highway you may feel fine until you see the sign that gives you the speed limit then you become aware that you were in violation of the law by speeding. Paul said the law serves only to bring us to Christ and to receive the Grace and payment he made. Hebrews 8:6 said Jesus is a better Covenant than the Old System of rituals and law keeping. Answer this, do you keep Jewish feast, observances and ritual currently? No you don’t because Christian (Gentiles meaning not Jews)do not recognize the Old because we are under the New Testament law of Grace. I will be praying for you to read your bible with understanding and not just follow the manipulation & teachings of your Pastor who needs money to keep the Mega Church going. Jen me, you, we are the Church. Where two are three are assembled there He (Jesus( is in the midst.
That is His word! Often Gentiles had house Churches. Some places in the world have underground Churches like Communist Countries that are heavily monitored and persecuted have to hid out in homes secretly. A big bldg does not mean God is present. He did not need a big crowd. He only needed 120 at Pentecost in the upper room then they went on to be filled with His Spirit and changed the whole world!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by SJ

SJ — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 04:50:07 +0000

Excuse me I meant no one could keep the whole law which is why Jesus had to come and save us from the curse because of breaking the law.
All laws had to be kept not just the tithe law. They have been kept for us by Jesus who stood in our place as our substitute.
Give as you are lead by Gods Spirit. I do and I am really blessed.
You overlooked Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law” It is right there in front of you unless you have a veil over your eyes that is plain and clear!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by SJ

SJ — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 04:46:15 +0000

Jen you don’t have to pray about what is right in front of you in the word just pick it up and read the New Testament promises because of the cross. Did you know in Acts 15:10 Peter said not to trouble the Gentiles with what he called a yoke of bondage (laws like circumcision and other laws) that neither he or his ancestors could carry. Ever read Romans 8:32 “God did not spare His only Son but FREELY Gave him up for us all therefore He with HIM will surely give us all things
So who can bring a charge against Gods elect?”
You need to read your New Testament and find out what was paid for us on the Cross. Jews could keep the law there were six hundred and thirteen laws that expanded out of the ten that had to be kept under the Old Covenant day and night around the clock. Now the laws are written not on tables of stones but as Jeremiah prophesized it would be written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Stop following the traditions of man and follow the instructions in the word. You would then know that there is not one commandment for Gentiles to tithe under the dispensation of Grace after the payment Jesus made on the Cross. Gentiles were not included in the Old Covenant only Jews were! We have been adopted & grafted into a Covenant with God because of the Cross Paid in full guarantees Salvation and favor free of charge!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Don

Don — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 04:35:17 +0000

CHRIST HAS REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW CANCELS OUT ANY CURSE FROM NOT KEEPING THE LAW. GOD ACCEPTS THE PAYMENT JESUS PAID IN FULL WHICH CANCELS ANY DEBT OR PAYMENT YOU ARE OWING. IT IS CALLED FAVOR
(UNEARNED AND NOT DESERVED) BOAST IN THAT AND NOT YOUR TITHE RECORDS!
ALSO KEEP THE SABBATH WHILE YOU ARE BOASTING ON KEEPING THE TITHE LAW BUT OF COURSE YOU WON’T GIVE UP YOUR RECREATION AND HOBBIES FROM FRIDAY NIGHT TILL SATURDAY NIGHT WILL YOU?? HYPOCRITES!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 04:31:24 +0000

For anyone seeking deprogramming from the tithe or be cursed lie
go to Galatians 3:13 in the New Testament not Malachi which is the Old Covenant instruction to the Jews only.
Repeat Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us on the Cross” If you do not began to see veil fall from your eyes then you have it real—bad!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Jen

Jen — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:31:21 +0000

At my church (which is considered a mega-church) the entire month of January is dedicated to teaching about tithing. I have been taught by a pastor that I highly respect that not tithing removes God’s protection and anything from financial devastation to illnesses can occur. I have overdrawn my bank account numerous times in the past in order to make absolutely sure that I tithe. I in no way want to ever not give back to God, or not show my gratitude or praise to Him for all the blessings He has given me.

On the other hand, tithing, at times feels (as an earlier post stated) “a monthly bill” and the guilt, fear, and panic over the issue makes it hard for me to believe it is God calling me to do it. Everything else seems to have such a clear answer.

I do not own anything, everything I have already belongs to Him and He has the power to take it all away or add to it. I am not attached to money, and whatever I am given in my life that is what I was meant to have. I will be fine if I never live in a mansion, own a Louis Vuitton or drive a BMW….I don’t feel comfortable with stuff like that anyway because there are people who are starving and have no clothing, etc.

I just find it so hard to believe that my loving God, my Father would insist that I give Him a certain amount of money every month (like a landlord) or He will not love me or protect me and my family any longer and let us be plagued with illnesses and fall into financial devastation. I am not questioning it out of greed, I am questioning it because I do not have a clear answer from the Holy Spirit about it..a peace in my heart..at least not in the form that it has been presented. I know that if God presented a situation to me where someone was in need and He wanted me to help, I would know right away what He was asking of me and I wouldn’t hesitate.

I will be praying hard about this and asking God to make His desire clear because in the end that is all that matters to me. From zero to 100 whatever he wants me to turn over and to whomever He wants me to turn it over to I will and if I KNOW it is Him, I can’t help but do it cheerfully.

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Anna

Anna — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:29:21 +0000

Keep the Sabbath too if you are keeping the tithe law otherwise you are being contradictory and selecting only what suits you!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by SJ

SJ — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:26:34 +0000

Jesus gave many free promises that God would meet our daily needs if we ask in His name, He gave us His word that it would be done on the condition that we are abiding in Him. He also proclaimed that He came to heal the sick and set the captives free and this was free of charge! By His stripes we are Healed either we are healed here on earth or for eternity in Heaven. Jesus never charged a dime for an answer to prayer and I challenge anyone to find the Scripture for where Jesus charged for a healing or miracle. Salvation is free and so are answers to prayers. I mind up my mind to accept the payment Jesus made by faith and have been more blessed more than when I was keeping an Old Covenant law tithe law out of fear of a curse which applied to a Jewish nation still under the law of Moses. I freely give as I have freely received but not to brag about my tithing record and steal away the attention from the Cross and payment Jesus made!

Comment on What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? by Damon

Damon — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:16:41 +0000

It should dawn on the any thinking Christian that if your Pastor/Church Leader is not also promoting that you keep the Sabbath Day which is no work or activity on Friday evening till Saturday at sundown then why are they promoting one Old Covenant law, when all had to be kept to be in right standing with God? In Matthew 23:23 Jesus did not even compliment the Pharisees for tithing and they were still under the Old Covenant law because Jesus had not yet died to fulfill the law for the people He came to redeem from the Curse of the law. Tithing is a manipulation and the fact that the Tithe Mandaters are not teaching to keep any other Old Covenant law, Jewish feast or Jewish Ceremony as in circumcision, dietary laws is proof of it. If anyone cannot see this they are blind leading the blind! Give as you purpose in your own heart, not out of duty or grudgingly for God loves a cheerful giver (not tithe payer). Give Jesus the credit for what he paid in full for you not your works so that you will stop boasting in your own payments!