We have a shepherd. His name is Jesus. Anyone else who claims the title is trying to usurp His role in our lives.

If you didn’t like SG, then you don’t know what a good church looks like. A cult by definition departs from the essentials of the historic Christian faith as codified in the creeds. SG does not depart from the essentials, so they are not a cult. Just because you dislike them or do not agree with them, doesn’t mean they are a cult. No church is perfect. Find one that you agree with and stop being such a whiner and complainer! Read Josh Harris’ book Stop Dating the Church or Mark Dever’s 9 Marks of a Healthy Church. These lay out biblical principals for finding a good church.

Until then, stop being that pathetic person that Eric Simmons was talking about complaining in their underwear. I tend to be critical and a complainer too, but it will never help your walk with Christ or the building up of others to keep selfishly “venting” all day. My kids get a spanking for whining. Maybe you need a good spanking!

My aim of writing this to you is when i read these testimonies i felt to have found some body whom we can partner.
i will be very happy if my partnership is considered,please feel free to ask me any thing am ready to answer it
GOD BLESS

“…how many of you have actually gone to this covenant life church or really talked to pastors of Sovereign grace ministries.”

Um… most of the people commenting here are either current or former members of an SGM church. And most of what we’re saying is our thoughts regarding an MP3 recording–that’s not hearsay.

So did you accidentally post your comment on the wrong thread? I’m confused.

Matthew 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

As I mentioned in another post, I addressed my concerns over their views of the tithe during our membership interview. We were accepted even with my concerns (in writing, on the membership application) that their “official” stance on tithing was unbiblical.

Actually, it’s funny that you mention not reading any Biblical defense of my position, as it was my post on tithing that began the series of pastoral meetings which ended in our leaving.

By the way, The Cross and Criticism is an excellent article. I have learned a lot from it and endeavor to practice the teachings within. And actually Dr. Alfred Poirier wrote that article. Ted Tripp is also a fine writer though.

Proverbs 16:2 All a man’s ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

These have been food for my soul.

“I thought people were joking when they said there was an anti Sovereign Grace website out there.”

This isn’t one. Neither is SGM Refuge, and I wouldn’t even consider the SGM Survivors gang to be anti-SGM.

What do you call it when a man receive criticism as an expression of hatred?

There’s a family of churches I know of that would say it’s a sign of a proud, unteachable spirit. They often talk about this article called The Cross and Criticism by some guy named Alfred Poirier Paul Tripp (maybe you’ve heard of him). Apparently they think it’s good; worth reading, even.

But you’d never know if from the way their leaders (and members) respond to criticism.

Living on the west coast I know little of the leaders mentioned here, but even if they are as flawed as some people here have suggested, I’d rather sit in their council than fellowship with dissenters who have no loving rebuke but instead are given over to cynicism.

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

1 John 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

I have met CJ, but I don’t know him personally. I’m impressed with his preaching; it’s right on and he’s very visual for us visual learners. I attended Larry Tomzac’s church and struggled with it from the beginning. It didn’t feel like a SGM church, he brushed me off when I tried to talk to him about things I didn’t agree with. When he was asked to step down, I agreed; Larry isn’t “evil” but he had some issues he refused to confront that were obvious to others.

How refreshing! I’d attended churchs (a Baptist one) where the assistant pastor was a jerk and used questionable business tactics in his own company. He’s still preaching today. Another had an affair and wasn’t excused. I love that our leaders are accountable and held to a standard as described by the Bible. Even the “big guys” will be asked to step down if it’s appropriate. If they see it, wonderful; if they are not yet convicted, all the more reason for them to step down.

We homeschool (many of our families don’t). It isn’t because of the church, but I appreciate the support. I attend a home group each week, again by choice, and value their insight. It doesn’t prevent me from going to God; quite the opposite.

I do not know Eric Simmons, but “phenomenal” is a synonym for “amazing” so it was used correctly, and while his imagery was clearly hyperbole, anyone who doesn’t agree with his point, “you can’t believe everything you read in a blog,” has some issues (wikipedia is a wonderful site in which all writers are accountable for conveying the truth; hardly the same thing as a blog.”

Is it possible some SGM churches lean over into legalism? Probably. Mine doesn’t, even Tomzac’s didn’t. Name a family of churches that don’t have some that go too far?

It is not a cult. I have expressed my difficulties with Brent’s preaching, which tends to have good points, only using torturous logic to get there. I haven’t been cast out.

Unity in foundational concepts; grace in inconsequentials.

Oh, and Sovereign Grace is not copyrighted; feel free to use sovereign grace as anything other than a proper noun and you’re fine. Even as a proper noun, as long as you’re not intentionally sowing confusion, go for it.

leaders are to be held to a greater standard, not perfect (how can you in good conscience redirect a concerned christian comments by saying no church is perfect). Dan is the leadership in the church being transparent or revealing in regards to the matters.

are the sins of the pdi/sgm’s leadership fruit truly being confessed or is it as john piper says leaders afraid circling the wagons to protect, not from an enemy but from the church itself–quite possibly the HOLY SPIRIT?

do you believe that only a leader a pastor can pull the fire alarm switch when smoke or flames are inside the house? where would our body’s strength be?

do you or can you see, not all who oppose you or are angry at this time are “nuts”? so many are concerned about the family, the children, sick and his church. your silence or nondisclosure breeds greater concern by the hurt or discerning. i am sure there are difficult legal political issues, but try dying to self. (this is hard for a group or corporation to do–it was also in JESUS’S time).

think about what that would means as a man of GOD. stop talking listen to those who once worshiped & penned notes from scripture in your very fellowship. the men and woman who were once children they ate their first bible crumbs at your table–many are now lost. remember those that gave to you? those who trusted you? your children played together. ask GOD to help you to hear a holy message that the Spirit of GOD may bring from the individuals that aren’t singing your same songs.

Dan, it is not enough to say don’t shoot the wounded, why did we train our Christians to shoot at each other? why was that even an option? maybe GOD placed these second class Christians in your path for such a time as this. would you dare to believe that you could have abandon your role as shepherd even for short time,perhaps to the benefit and prestige of a franchise. can you see that if the worst is true about what some say that Christ is big enough to bring you and you family thru and to keep you.

cj i dont understand the cloaking that it seems that your leaders do in reguarding some very real concerns. do you know as a father when were not being honest it can demagnetize our childs moral compass? as a father in the faith, it seem you could be exasperation the children GOD.

yes if they are in step, compliant, supportive that is unity! but if they have been hurt or neglected or sense error, should they be moved a notched or two down the class system? that’s not the gospel. but nether is a system of accountability of which all these precious young and old men may feel a need to comply to feed their families and keep the brand alive. look to see if lay elders–GODLY, holy men–would not seek to help this missed direction that may be alluding the gatekeepers.

i had thought it odd in the last few years that rev. swaggert and rev jim baker were more able to communicate remorse and ask for forgiveness. perhaps they were just despreate. i pray GOD help you to be desparate on these matters! we know you teach humility. we know you know humility. does the office not permit one to practice it openly? this is an open matter–its GODS reputation.

the harm? he will be made strong in your weekness. and as ken sande says everytime a leader, father, husband, man is open to the truth in confession, they will receve GOD’S favor and breed humility in those in the house. its just an appeal.

dan, danny, brent: remember the times that you preached that “if ever i find myself concerned about me, or my pride or agenda get in the way of the gospel, i pray that GOD would reprove me–that men would remove me”? i don’t know, maybe that time has come–or may be you didn’t expect GOD to use these broken, second-class citizens to bring the word of correction. you have always communicated issues and concerns or doctrinal variances within the nationalities of the church universal, to say “they’re off” or “they’re stepping over grace” or “they place too much emphasis” on this or that! do it to yourself. your confession–your self-denial–the gospel compels you to spend six months or a year openly understanding teaching, repenting, clarifying, and sending out letters full of love and mystery by asking forgiveness.

ask GOD to help you invite some for coffee, or for lunch the way JESUS would. take up the concerns of the weaker brothers. take the truth to peace makers, ask desiring god for help–you have helped & guided their ministries. ask 9 marks to help comb the nits out. these men or others will race to help in ways you may not be able to see now. no cult would ever invest that much time doing something so close to the heart of GOD. such as my stubborn heart before the alter of GOD, remember it doesn’t matter that all see you: repent! only glory goes to GOD. Matthew 10 would remind you “whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will for my sake will find it.” could a group find or lose ther lives for the sake some thing other?

with great affection for you & your ministries, and great sorrow those sheep (our brothers &sisters) who are by omission or commission dying.

I know of many “Calvinistic” churches ( I used to belong to one) where this concept is actually taught:
“…The elders are to rule His church and I am to submit cheerfully to the elder’s rule. My duty is to obey my elder, God’s ‘duly authorized’ authority over my soul and life, and God will reward my obedience even if my elder is wrong…”

And if you disagree with the pastor/elder on a sermon point or church doctrine, you “…are guilty of rebellion against Christ Himself because obedience to the ‘eldership’ is really obedience to my Lord and Savior who graciously has given elders as gifts to His church….”

That is EXACTLY the problem. The foregoing is NOT a caricature but is almost word for word what is believed and taught in many Reformed or Calvinistic churches that are engulfed in authoritarianism and spiritual abuse. It doesn’t take much thought to see that such a man-made, self-serving “authority structure” such as this is pure Roman Catholicism through and through.

And once this evil system is imbibed by the church members, what is one example of the results of this teaching?

Here, I speak from sad experience. When one disagrees with the pastor’s sermon or questions a point of church doctrine, (like I did) your husband is then “counseled” by the pastor to separate from you in order to “teach you a lesson.” And if that doesn’t work, divorce is the next option.
This is the kind of monstrous evil that is being promulgated in many churches today, even as we speak! This is the sad state of affairs today and in my opinion, it is evil beyond words!

Believe me, I don’t mean to promote any site, but the website: http://www.wickedshepherds.com
speaks much about this evil that I am talking about. Their article A Word To The Wives goes into great, and yet sickening detail as to what I am trying to say. It is all-too-true!

There is absolutely no one else around who is talking about this evil in the church today!

Tracey

I don’t remember John the Baptizer being admonished for setting impossible standards there in that passage. In fact, I was always given the impression that it was a reasonable demand to make. Maybe you’re reading a different translation?

“…in small groups Christians share life together and encourage one another in our faith walk.”

Only so long as they attend the SGM Sunday meetings. If they leave, they’re “encouraged” by the pastors to “share life” with some other group. That’s fine, I guess—so long as nobody ever leaves.

Also, “transparency” and “humility” are great… until you find out that Care Group leaders are required by the pastors to keep logs of everything that’s “transparently and humbly” shared… so it can then be gossiped about by pastors and their wives, or used against the person if they ever make the pastor feel uncomfortable.

I think you need to open your eyes, Ben.

Personally I don’t think CJ or Joshua Harris should not be considered anything special. Jesus was special. They are controlling sinners with pride–just like me and everyone else in SGM.

SGM is great because in small groups Christians share life together and encourage one another in our faith walk. Also, transparency and humility are encouraged as well. I would suggest SGM for anyone to visit.

I too have been apart of SGM (formally PDI) for almost 15 years now, and I have grown tremendously in my faith & walk with the Lord. Through others examples & their care & love of me through Biblical fellowship & accountability (that I asked for, this was not a forced thing.. I greatly desire it!). I do not walk on others faith, I walk on my own faith. I listen to God’s word (Scripture) being preached in my church every Sunday & not man’s opinion (which is HIGHLY uncommon to find in modern day churches). My pastor walks out repentance, he walks out confession publicly, I have seem many pastors from SOV grace check their motives, be checked by others observations DAILY & step down from positions with humility understanding that their sin has consequences & God has other plans for their lives. I know first hand and see first hand those who are in authority here and they do not take their jobs lightly, they do not care for us for fun, they do not care for us to get paid (they give their lives to serve us, for basically minimum wages.) I work as a Sec to one of the SGM churches and I can tell you I see whats going on “behind the scenes” I know that my pastors aren’t treated celebrities. I know Brent Detwiler & his family are not treated like celebrities and those who do treat him like this are wrong and he himself has confronted people in their falsity of exalting him to a position he was not given or does he desire. Brent Detwiler for years had care of oversight over our region, we know him quite well. With leadership & oversight there is always a tendency in others to exalt them and think of them as something “bigger” than they really are.

I don’t think I need to go any further into detail, but what I would like to end with is this. If you want to know the Truth of this matter & all matters, go to the source that will not falter, that will not fail, that is a solid rock & foundation. Go to God’s word, seek the Lord through prayer & let him inform you & your thoughts and not man & man’s so often contradicting opinions and belief systems that fail time & time again. I don’t want you to take what I have to say, what Travis has to say or anyone else has to say as truth, I want you to find solid never changing, always faithful truth of God’s word. Check what you hear, test it, then live for it with your whole heart.

My heart is with you friends!

The fact that the possibility of the church being a cult should raise questions – the process you and many others go through to ultimately justify your staying at a church could be considered by some as a hardening of the heart. I don’t know if this is the case with you, but here are a few questions to ask yourself to see if you may indeed be part of a cult:

When a crisis happens in your life, who do you turn to first?
Do you feel more secure knowing you have a church family for accountability?
Do you allow others the freedom to “speak truth into your life” to the degree that you would never disagree with them? (i.e. if everyone said you were in sin but you had not been convicted, would you believe them and not the Spirit of God in you?)
Are you willing to speak up against anything you don’t agree with?
DO you feel pressure (unspoken or not) to conform to the ideas and activites of the church you are in? This would include pressure to read books they recommend, etc.
Do you feel the need to “run things by” leadership, care group leaders or friends before making decisions in your life?

These are just some areas many have found they had problems in and the Lord revealed either a spirit of legalism or idolatry, or both (as in my own case) These sins are serious, Take the time to see if you are deceived by them or not. If you answered yes to any of these, check your heart before God. The church of Christ is to glorify God and point us to Him not each other in the Body. Are more references made to the Body than CHrist? Stop and think on these things. Test the spirits at work – if nothing comes up, then you will know. If you discern something off, then seek the Lord. Above all, pray for discernment, be in His Word more than books, and seek HIM before anyone. Blessings to you sister!

I have been baffled for a while why Mahaney has

At various times, Mahaney has admitted his problems with pride etc. I wonder why his stepping down for a season was not considered when had someone else in the same organization had the same problem the would have been required to step down. e.g. Tomczak.

It sure seems like a double standard.

*******

Phenomenal: Very remarkable; extraordinary; amazing; Perceptible by the senses through immediate experience

Well… if that is the definition of phenomenal then it might apply to me. (snicker)

(listening…)

Mom? … No we’re on high alert here… I’ve got a blog post to write!

Uh… er … sorry.

Anyway… Mr. Eric is concerned that one and all are one click away from lots of Heresies. Well, I supposed we could go back to the days of mass illiteracy like say oh… the 15th century when good ol’ Johnny C wrote his Institutes. I figure that might have kept folk from getting bit by the boogie man of bad ideas—

Hang on a sec… just thought of something…..

Mom! Mom! Hey… could you turn the heat on …

What? No… I don’t want any birthday cake– Mom! The heat… could you turn it on?

(Listening…)

Never mind…

Ok… so where was I?

Mr. Eric was saying something: “You can in an instant find tons of information on any subject you want on Google. Do you realize that Google allows you to be one step away from a lot of heresies?”

Really? That is phenomenal. Can you imagine the wonder of technology? And ohh… the danger. Heretics abound EVERYWHERE!!!! So don’t Google anything! Even better don’t go on the internet. Or, even better, don’t be around anything electric so the temptation doesn’t overwhelm you to read those naked guys writing garbage. Stay away from the Eeeeevilll post adolescences who have immersed themselves in biblical errors when their not playing xbox 360 Bioshock. (BTW: I played it harvesting the little sisters and rescuing them and it was the SAME. Dangit!)

Mr. Eric said: “And it’s phenomenal to me in our age now, that what is represented on the Internet is now seen as fact, and authority, and truth!”

And what is phenomenal to me is that a bunch of thinkers in the 15th century got access to the printing press and THEY are fact, authority, and truth. Ohhhh… the irony!

(Listening…)

No, I still can’t feel the heat … mom. Did you turn it on? Yes, the button that says heat. I know the cake will melt if I don’t blow the candles out… but I’m blogging!

No mom don’t come down stairs… just don’t… mom. Stay upstairs. You don’t wanna see something phenomenal!!!!

ROTFLMBO…

John Immel
http://www.spritualtyranny.com

Now tell me, acme: does this hurt?

Okay, I’ll put my purple pen away–sniff, the trials of being an English teacher!

Ironically, that definition is from Wikitionary, a dictionary which exists solely on the Internet and is composed of definitions which (for all we know) were crafted by 24-year-old guys in their moms’ basements!

Aaargh! Does the man OWN a dictionary? Does he know that he can google “phenomenal” and learn that he’s using the wrong word? The anti-intellectualism — the “Hey, I barely made it out of high school” jones — but listen to me “rap” as an authority in your life for 45 minutes to an hour– made me crazy trying to sit with my son in the 10:31 youth ministry meetings.

Thank you for the plug.

Grace,

Jim

I am of the firm belief in what Dale Carnegie said in his book “How to Win Friends…”

A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”

Don’t worry I despise arguing. Just basic discussion is better.

Glad you are happy friend, really.

Rhino

I’m not trying to be antagonistic. I’m not here to tear anyone away from their faith, I just think the PDI/SMG backlash is interesting since I used to be a part of it. If this is going to turn into a witnessing opportunity for you, then I’ll just go away. I’ve read, studied and dealt with all the arguments already and am comfortable with knowledge I’ve gleaned from that.

Thanks for links.

Oh yeah I’m 46 and never wore a robe. But I have sat at my PC in my underwear checking my email, shopping and paying bills before.

In CHRIST,
Rhino

http://spiritualtyranny.com/

No, I still love Jesus (even if some of his people are manipulative @*#*@%#s).

Here’s a few places where former (and current, but wary) SGM members are talking:

http://www.sgmrefuge.com
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com
http://ikissedsgmgoodbye.blogspot.com

Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, man… you should check out what the guys over at The God Journey are talking about sometime. I think you’ll find their focus refreshing.

Where are the stories of some of these other PDI people who have left? I find it fascinating to look in from the outside now and see people noticing the things that I noticed only after I got out of it.

I would encourage your friend to read some of the stories online that people are posting, to read htis blog since Travis knows firsthand what went on, and encourage him/her not to be afraid anymore. There is support out there, and fear of leaving is SGM’s greatest weapon in keeping PR positive. People are too scared to speak out against the ministry.

All that said; thanks for speaking up. Your verse choice is right on.

God Bless you and I pray for his hand at your back.