Sovereign Grace Ministries – Church or Cult? [Quotes Week]
I want to kick off “quotes week” on a serious note, but the Monkey song was just too darned funny. Anyway, here’s my original Monday post:
“…how is it that CJ Mahaney can make 5 references to his pride and arrogance in his blog, [and] that’s somehow celebrated as humility… [but Larry Tomczak] is confronted with observations of pride and arrogance, prayerfully considers these observations, repents of his sin, writes a letter to this effect that is distributed to the entire ministry, steps down from leadership, and submits to months of disciplinary consequences… [only to be considered] ‘disqualified’ to lead a church?
“I’m sorry. But this woman’s posts—more than any others (b/c she was obviously involved in this process)—has convinced me that Sovereign Grace is a cult.”
(comment by “SGM Casualty” on SGM Survivors)
This website is blowing the lid off of the corruption and poor leadership that’s been allowed to fester in Sovereign Grace Ministries, due to years of fear, control, and cultic tactics. It’s heartbreaking to hear some of the stories from former members; moreso to hear the ensuing silence from SGM leadership.
There’s nasty stuff in there, folks, but C.J. et al seem to want to just circle the wagons. Honestly? I think that’s worse than anything that’s being said over on the blog (and new message board).
“Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.“ — Ephesians 5:11 (ESV)
UPDATE: On Friday, March 14th, Eric Simmons spoke to the singles at Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, MD. You can download the MP3 of his talk, but what I find most interesting is this particular quote (beginning at the 13:49 mark):
I’m also concerned because at this point in time, we are at the pinnacle of the Information Age. You can in an instant find tons of information on any subject you want on Google. Do you realize that Google allows you to be one step away from a lot of heresies?
There are a lot of heretics out there with a lot of false teachings that have blogs. And it’s phenomenal to me in our age now, that what is represented on the Internet is now seen as fact, and authority, and truth! And the reality? Most of these guys who are writing blogs are 24-year-old guys living in their moms’ basement, sitting there in their underwear! That’s what they’re doing! They’ve got a robe on, and they’re just typing away. And they’re typing away their false teaching, which is honestly a bunch of garbage.
It’s out there! It’s just one click away.
I would humbly submit that this is nothing more than fear-based propaganda. (I would also like to point out that C.J. Mahaney, Josh Harris and Eric Simmons are all bloggers–Eric doubly so, as he also writes for the New Attitude blog.)
UPDATE #2: I seem to have driven the “Orthodoxy Underground” further underground, as can be attested by Google’s cached versions of these Blogger profiles. (Thanks to Elaine Hooton for pointing out that the blog was apparently taken down.) I don’t know much of anything about the blog (it was private; you had to be pre-approved by their admins just to read it), but apparently (according to Google) Thabiti Anyabwile, Justin Buzzard and Ricky Alcantar were all members of the blog. So why’d they delete the whole thing, just a few days after this matter came up? 
UPDATE #3: Bugger. The Google Cache link doesn’t work anymore. Well, it just listed the Blogger profiles for Eric, Thabiti, Justin and Ricky (and showed them as linked to the Orthodoxy Underground site). Thanks to Dan for catching this one!
UPDATE #4: What do I mean by “cult”? Find out here.
March 20th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
The only way to know such a thing about “most bloggers” would be to have visited a bunch of partially dressed young men at their mothers’ houses.
I’m just sayin’.
March 20th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
LOL!
Abraham, between this and the squirrel, you have officially become even cooler (in the Seitler household) than your father.
And that’s sayin’ something.
March 21st, 2008 at 1:41 am
I’m not 24 and I’ve never worn a robe…
But I’ve also never been in a courtship and I don’t homeschool my kids. Hmmm…maybe I am bad…
March 23rd, 2008 at 12:23 am
Eric Simmons’ blog seems to have disappeared. Was it there when you wrote this? I only know what I’ve read, but this church does seem really scary.
March 23rd, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Thanks for the heads-up. They *did* delete it, and I’ve got the Google Cache to prove it. I updated the post with a link to Google’s info.
You know, this is a very strange position to be in. I don’t enjoy it. If it weren’t for people I care about still being in their clutches, I’d probably just “live and let live.”
But when they delete secret blogs (that you can’t even read unless they give you a pass) just because a “nitpick” links to them? That seems majorly creepy to me.
You know? I mean, a simple “yeah, we’ve got a private blog–oh, well” would have sufficed. You delete the thing upon discovery, and it screams, “hey, look at us! we’ve got something to hide!”
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Your Google Cache link does not work. Do you know the original website address? If so, we can use archive.org to receive the page.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Dan,
Thanks for catching that! I was hoping I wouldn’t have to save and post screenshots… Oh, well, it really only listed the guys who had Orthodoxy Underground listed in their Blogger profiles.
May 10th, 2008 at 5:05 am
Eric’s comments are classic ways of trying to control and instill fear. I’ve seen this done ad nauseum in many churches. You have an honest question about something. It’s not answered so people/parishioners start talking and a way to stop it is to pull out the scriptures about gossip, “don’t touch God’s anointed,” etc. There’s no new thing under the sun. Read ALL the books about ‘church/spiritual abuse’ and it will become clearer to you. Until Eric becomes or sees that he’s a victim/izer of abuse he won’t get it. And as long as he keeps getting a paycheck from SGM and kudos from FotF/Boundless he definitely won’t get it.
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Are you guys Christians? Wow this is sad. If what you say about this group (SGM) is true (and it does not appear to be from this outsider) then you are even lower for sitting here in the muck. Get over it and get a life….Christians……a strange animal indeed. Seems like you have an ax to grind……what does the Bible say about all this…..are they your enemy…..hmmmm. I know I am not as eloquent of thought and communication as this bunch of vipers so I guess I will go on down the road…..geesh!
May 28th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Bubba, Paul himself exposed false teaching and called out BY NAME those responsible. That is what we are doing here. A tactic within cults or controlling organizations is damage control and to dismiss the reality by distracting, shifting focus, or calling into question the character of those calling them to account.
We love the Body of Christ, but many have seen firsthand the damage this type of spiritual abuse can do within the Body. We are not adding to the division, God is simply winnowing out those faithful to Him and His Word and those who worship SGM and leadership there in idolatry.
June 28th, 2008 at 1:38 am
I won’t say who I know who is involved with this church, but you can privately contact me and I can tell you more. It honestly is pretty scary, fear controlled, and cult like. I’ve only been a few times but am close with someone who has spent several years there. I am a believing/practicing Christian with experience in a good number of denominations and fear is rampant in the people attending these churches.
All that said; thanks for speaking up. Your verse choice is right on.
God Bless you and I pray for his hand at your back.
June 28th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Anonymous, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of former SGM members who are coming out of the cult closet now that you can actually find evidence online of others being spiritually abused. OUr leaving will be easier than those who left years ago and thought they were crazy – now we all know it was SGM all along, and their controlling spirit.
I would encourage your friend to read some of the stories online that people are posting, to read htis blog since Travis knows firsthand what went on, and encourage him/her not to be afraid anymore. There is support out there, and fear of leaving is SGM’s greatest weapon in keeping PR positive. People are too scared to speak out against the ministry.
June 29th, 2008 at 2:52 am
So, have any of you guys left Christianity entirely? I was a member of the PDI (now SGM, I guess) church in Charlotte, NC when Brent Detwiler and Bob Kauflin led it. I have to say that, though I agree that PDI/SGM did seem to be very controlling even when I was was knee-deep in it, I have PDI/SGM to thank that I am no longer a Christian. Even back then (the mid 90’s) C.J., Brent, Bob, etc. were viewed as rock stars and it seemed that people (myself included) served on various teams just so they could get close and interact with them.
Where are the stories of some of these other PDI people who have left? I find it fascinating to look in from the outside now and see people noticing the things that I noticed only after I got out of it.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Jeff,
No, I still love Jesus (even if some of his people are manipulative @*#*@%#s).
Here’s a few places where former (and current, but wary) SGM members are talking:
http://www.sgmrefuge.com
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com
http://ikissedsgmgoodbye.blogspot.com
Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, man… you should check out what the guys over at The God Journey are talking about sometime. I think you’ll find their focus refreshing.
June 29th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Oh, and here’s another one (I can’t keep track of them all!):
http://spiritualtyranny.com/
June 29th, 2008 at 10:52 am
I agree with most of you especially telling person who says they are no longer a Christian to not throw out the baby and the bath water together.
I’m an older guy that’s seen a few
“spectacular” outfits.
One there is one salvation and it is the first and only salvation is humbling yourself before JESUS CHRIST.
If you were a Christian …you might slip, stumble and fall as we all do DAILY but you’d still be one. Because once you have known this LOVE AND “MERCY” it can never be forgotten. One may try and ignore it, but its there.
I’d gather saying you were never saved at all and would pray you seek out a true Sovereign Grace Baptist church near you and see how powerful salvation is.
These entities have hurt millions and stolen millions from the sheep. Let’s pray for ourselves and one another that men and women don’t stop BLOGGIN’!! That’s how its exposed today.
Oh yeah I’m 46 and never wore a robe. But I have sat at my PC in my underwear checking my email, shopping and paying bills before.
In CHRIST,
Rhino
June 29th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Yeah, don’t bother with the proselytizing – it’ll do no good. I didn’t de-convert because of PDI, they just helped push me in that direction. I felt a call to witness to the “intellectual unbeliever”. At their encouraging (Brent Detwiler/Bob Kauflin), I read and studied the apologists. Then I decided to research the other side’s case. It was traumatic to watch my entire worldview shatter like glass, but over the course of a year of study I realized the atheist position has a much better case. It’s been 10 years since that realization and I’m still happier and more fulfilled now than I ever was as a Christian. Being “forgiven” doesn’t hold a candle to knowing that you were never guilty of anything (i.e. Original Sin) in the first place.
I’m not trying to be antagonistic. I’m not here to tear anyone away from their faith, I just think the PDI/SMG backlash is interesting since I used to be a part of it. If this is going to turn into a witnessing opportunity for you, then I’ll just go away. I’ve read, studied and dealt with all the arguments already and am comfortable with knowledge I’ve gleaned from that.
Thanks for links.
June 29th, 2008 at 11:37 am
no I’m done just sharing my point. I stopped the back and forth conversations years ago.
I am of the firm belief in what Dale Carnegie said in his book “How to Win Friends…”
A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”
Don’t worry I despise arguing. Just basic discussion is better.
Glad you are happy friend, really.
Rhino
June 29th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Jeff, I hear ya. I’ll still plug last year’s debate between Christopher Hitchens and Doug Wilson. At least it was entertaining.
June 29th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Travis!
Thank you for the plug.
Grace,
Jim
July 1st, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Eric Simmons said, “And it’s phenomenal to me in our age now, that what is represented on the Internet is now seen as fact, and authority, and truth!”
Aaargh! Does the man OWN a dictionary? Does he know that he can google “phenomenal” and learn that he’s using the wrong word? The anti-intellectualism — the “Hey, I barely made it out of high school” jones — but listen to me “rap” as an authority in your life for 45 minutes to an hour– made me crazy trying to sit with my son in the 10:31 youth ministry meetings.
July 1st, 2008 at 5:10 pm
To be fair, the final definition Google lists does fit the context of the quote.
Ironically, that definition is from Wikitionary, a dictionary which exists solely on the Internet and is composed of definitions which (for all we know) were crafted by 24-year-old guys in their moms’ basements!
July 1st, 2008 at 11:15 pm
The definition may fit, but that is not how the word is used. This is a mistake a non-reader makes, one that comes from hitting the old thesaurus and picking out a big word that seems to mean the same thing.
Okay, I’ll put my purple pen away–sniff, the trials of being an English teacher!
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:30 am
No, no… what I’m saying is this: look at the irony! His intended definition is championed only by one of the “authoritative websites” he belittles in his remarks.
Now tell me, acme: does this hurt?
July 30th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Sorry… I forgot those Carrots in the text fool the HTML to think stuff it shouldn’t … evil heretical carrots decieving the HTML… how phenomenal.
*******
Phenomenal: Very remarkable; extraordinary; amazing; Perceptible by the senses through immediate experience
Well… if that is the definition of phenomenal then it might apply to me. (snicker)
(listening…)
Mom? … No we’re on high alert here… I’ve got a blog post to write!
Uh… er … sorry.
Anyway… Mr. Eric is concerned that one and all are one click away from lots of Heresies. Well, I supposed we could go back to the days of mass illiteracy like say oh… the 15th century when good ol’ Johnny C wrote his Institutes. I figure that might have kept folk from getting bit by the boogie man of bad ideas—
Hang on a sec… just thought of something…..
Mom! Mom! Hey… could you turn the heat on …
What? No… I don’t want any birthday cake– Mom! The heat… could you turn it on?
(Listening…)
Never mind…
Ok… so where was I?
Mr. Eric was saying something: “You can in an instant find tons of information on any subject you want on Google. Do you realize that Google allows you to be one step away from a lot of heresies?”
Really? That is phenomenal. Can you imagine the wonder of technology? And ohh… the danger. Heretics abound EVERYWHERE!!!! So don’t Google anything! Even better don’t go on the internet. Or, even better, don’t be around anything electric so the temptation doesn’t overwhelm you to read those naked guys writing garbage. Stay away from the Eeeeevilll post adolescences who have immersed themselves in biblical errors when their not playing xbox 360 Bioshock. (BTW: I played it harvesting the little sisters and rescuing them and it was the SAME. Dangit!)
Mr. Eric said: “And it’s phenomenal to me in our age now, that what is represented on the Internet is now seen as fact, and authority, and truth!”
And what is phenomenal to me is that a bunch of thinkers in the 15th century got access to the printing press and THEY are fact, authority, and truth. Ohhhh… the irony!
(Listening…)
No, I still can’t feel the heat … mom. Did you turn it on? Yes, the button that says heat. I know the cake will melt if I don’t blow the candles out… but I’m blogging!
No mom don’t come down stairs… just don’t… mom. Stay upstairs. You don’t wanna see something phenomenal!!!!
ROTFLMBO…
John Immel
http://www.spritualtyranny.com
July 30th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
[...] I found Eric “Phenomenal” Simmon’s commentary on Bloggers here [...]
August 8th, 2008 at 11:48 am
I am not sure that at this time I would call SGM a cult.
I have been baffled for a while why Mahaney has
At various times, Mahaney has admitted his problems with pride etc. I wonder why his stepping down for a season was not considered when had someone else in the same organization had the same problem the would have been required to step down. e.g. Tomczak.
It sure seems like a double standard.
August 23rd, 2008 at 1:24 pm
PLEASE take this sincerely. We have just left a church due to the controlling nature of the leadership and would appreciate an email to my personal address (allanclare_1972@hotmail.com) if anyone can give me concrete things about SGM.
Many thanks,
A. C
August 29th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
My daughter’s best friend and her family attend the SG church. I had always thought it was “cultish” and odd that the Dad is a *1 World Class Jackass yet so highly involved with his church. We are non-believers and would never treat another human being the way the church has allowed him to treat his family because he is head of household, or some shit.
I’m glad that I googled, my suspicions were correct and she’ll not be attending any more of those hokey storefront church activities.
October 29th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
This entry of the blog is interesting. You are all entitled to your opinions of Sovereign Grace Ministries. But my family and I have been in a Sovereign Grace church now for five years. And at first, we did wonder if it was a cult. That really ran through my father’s mind. However, we quickly realized that it is not a cult at all. The people of Sovereign Grace ministries love Jesus, love the Gospel, and desire to glorify God in all that they do. I have grown tremendously in my relationship with Christ since I started attending my church, and I have seen many, many people in my church grow in their relationships with Christ in tangible ways. Like I can look back and see how God has worked in their lives and changed them to be more like Him in the past five years. How can anyone argue with that?
November 16th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Sovereign Grace Girl,
The fact that the possibility of the church being a cult should raise questions – the process you and many others go through to ultimately justify your staying at a church could be considered by some as a hardening of the heart. I don’t know if this is the case with you, but here are a few questions to ask yourself to see if you may indeed be part of a cult:
When a crisis happens in your life, who do you turn to first?
Do you feel more secure knowing you have a church family for accountability?
Do you allow others the freedom to “speak truth into your life” to the degree that you would never disagree with them? (i.e. if everyone said you were in sin but you had not been convicted, would you believe them and not the Spirit of God in you?)
Are you willing to speak up against anything you don’t agree with?
DO you feel pressure (unspoken or not) to conform to the ideas and activites of the church you are in? This would include pressure to read books they recommend, etc.
Do you feel the need to “run things by” leadership, care group leaders or friends before making decisions in your life?
These are just some areas many have found they had problems in and the Lord revealed either a spirit of legalism or idolatry, or both (as in my own case) These sins are serious, Take the time to see if you are deceived by them or not. If you answered yes to any of these, check your heart before God. The church of Christ is to glorify God and point us to Him not each other in the Body. Are more references made to the Body than CHrist? Stop and think on these things. Test the spirits at work – if nothing comes up, then you will know. If you discern something off, then seek the Lord. Above all, pray for discernment, be in His Word more than books, and seek HIM before anyone. Blessings to you sister!
November 16th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Chrissy, sounds like you have some disernment, or at least some common sesne. Jesus said we will know them by their fruit (followers of CHrist, or those who have an appearance but are not His followers). It is good to check the fruit. But please know that there are many believers of Christ who truly love the Lord and seek to glorify Him. Please don’t disregard Christ simply because some people in a church were Pharisees and hypocrites. We each will stand before God on judgment day and give an account for ourselves. Everyone. God will judge those who took His Name and denied Him by their actions. But you personally will give an account. Seek Him, read His Word, the Spirit of God leads us into all truth, not the Church. Read His Word. Seek HIM. Don’t get distracted by the church who is apostate.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
If sovereign grace is a cult, so be it, I ain’t leaving, and I’m honored to be part of a cult. If you were in power would you burn us? I’d be honored.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
Like Dan, I am honored to be a part of such a “cult”. My experiences at a SGM church have been much better than any of the other various churches I’ve attended and I’ve seen much growth in my life. They truly love God and seek to glorify him in all they do.
Reading through these posts has been enlightening. It seems like the only things you take issue with is are a few grammatical errors and remarks by Eric that were probably intended to be funny.
As for that whole controlling leadership thing, I have disagreed with one of the higher ups of SGM in his own kitchen on a matter of theology and I wasn’t sent to be brainwashed. We agreed to disagree and he tried to bring biblical backing to his side.
I don’t plan on leaving SGM anytime soon.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
I agree that I find this blog entry interesting. Do you mind if I share my experience with you?
I too have been apart of SGM (formally PDI) for almost 15 years now, and I have grown tremendously in my faith & walk with the Lord. Through others examples & their care & love of me through Biblical fellowship & accountability (that I asked for, this was not a forced thing.. I greatly desire it!). I do not walk on others faith, I walk on my own faith. I listen to God’s word (Scripture) being preached in my church every Sunday & not man’s opinion (which is HIGHLY uncommon to find in modern day churches). My pastor walks out repentance, he walks out confession publicly, I have seem many pastors from SOV grace check their motives, be checked by others observations DAILY & step down from positions with humility understanding that their sin has consequences & God has other plans for their lives. I know first hand and see first hand those who are in authority here and they do not take their jobs lightly, they do not care for us for fun, they do not care for us to get paid (they give their lives to serve us, for basically minimum wages.) I work as a Sec to one of the SGM churches and I can tell you I see whats going on “behind the scenes” I know that my pastors aren’t treated celebrities. I know Brent Detwiler & his family are not treated like celebrities and those who do treat him like this are wrong and he himself has confronted people in their falsity of exalting him to a position he was not given or does he desire. Brent Detwiler for years had care of oversight over our region, we know him quite well. With leadership & oversight there is always a tendency in others to exalt them and think of them as something “bigger” than they really are.
I don’t think I need to go any further into detail, but what I would like to end with is this. If you want to know the Truth of this matter & all matters, go to the source that will not falter, that will not fail, that is a solid rock & foundation. Go to God’s word, seek the Lord through prayer & let him inform you & your thoughts and not man & man’s so often contradicting opinions and belief systems that fail time & time again. I don’t want you to take what I have to say, what Travis has to say or anyone else has to say as truth, I want you to find solid never changing, always faithful truth of God’s word. Check what you hear, test it, then live for it with your whole heart.
My heart is with you friends!
February 3rd, 2009 at 4:11 pm
I came to Sovereign Grace not believing in Jesus and now I do–deeply. If that makes SGM a cult, count me in with the others.
Personally I don’t think CJ or Joshua Harris should not be considered anything special. Jesus was special. They are controlling sinners with pride–just like me and everyone else in SGM.
SGM is great because in small groups Christians share life together and encourage one another in our faith walk. Also, transparency and humility are encouraged as well. I would suggest SGM for anyone to visit.
February 3rd, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Sigh…
Only so long as they attend the SGM Sunday meetings. If they leave, they’re “encouraged” by the pastors to “share life” with some other group. That’s fine, I guess—so long as nobody ever leaves.
Also, “transparency” and “humility” are great… until you find out that Care Group leaders are required by the pastors to keep logs of everything that’s “transparently and humbly” shared… so it can then be gossiped about by pastors and their wives, or used against the person if they ever make the pastor feel uncomfortable.
I think you need to open your eyes, Ben.
February 6th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Hello, I am a former SGM member. Please visit the website SGMsurvivors.com for more information. Please read Noel’s Story. I am Noel’s niece. For more information about this cult, feel free to email me. Please let me know if you have any questions. I will be happy to fill you in on the details. God Bless
February 16th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Some Puritans massacred thousands of Irish (many of my ancestors) and yet I consider other Puritans to be my spiritual ancestors and excellent examples of love and humility.
If you are looking for a world without horror stories and with perfectly consistent leaders and groups of people without wolves in sheep clothing leaders, you will look forever, and be going with the flow of “independence,” ie bitter cynicism and lack of forgiveness and submissive forbearance. Would God call you to anarchy? I’m sure he has better things than that in store for you, like maybe community, forgiving and forgiven.
February 16th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Dan, we’re only looking for these self-proclaimed spiritual leaders to “bear fruit in keeping with repentance.”
I don’t remember John the Baptizer being admonished for setting impossible standards there in that passage. In fact, I was always given the impression that it was a reasonable demand to make. Maybe you’re reading a different translation?
March 27th, 2009 at 6:52 am
What really sucks about all this, to me at least, is the term “sovereign grace” seems to be almost owned and exists now in sort of a franchise use, or is copy written or something. I feel sorry for other churches who actually had the name “sovereign grace” in their name before these churches came along. Those of us Calvinists who are Baptistic instead of Reformed in our church government and ordinances liked using the phrase sovereign grace to describe the fact we are 5 pointers. Now CJ’s name pops up with every Internet search. You always here the argument from Freewillers that the doctrines of grace were not “invented” until the 1600’s and kinda like the Catholics claim that Justification by Imputed Righteousness did not come along until Luther. Anyway, the damage is done I guess and I’ll have to do some brainstorming for a new catch phrase and hope nobody screws it up.
April 21st, 2009 at 2:36 pm
The big problem is that when you have had a false theological concept drilled into your head for many years, it takes a long time to go back through the scriptures and realize where you have erred. And if you are presently in a church where you are taught the concept that “obeying your elders” is the equivalent to obeying God, it is pretty much a lost cause and you are well nigh trapped!
I know of many “Calvinistic” churches ( I used to belong to one) where this concept is actually taught:
“…The elders are to rule His church and I am to submit cheerfully to the elder’s rule. My duty is to obey my elder, God’s ‘duly authorized’ authority over my soul and life, and God will reward my obedience even if my elder is wrong…”
And if you disagree with the pastor/elder on a sermon point or church doctrine, you “…are guilty of rebellion against Christ Himself because obedience to the ‘eldership’ is really obedience to my Lord and Savior who graciously has given elders as gifts to His church….”
That is EXACTLY the problem. The foregoing is NOT a caricature but is almost word for word what is believed and taught in many Reformed or Calvinistic churches that are engulfed in authoritarianism and spiritual abuse. It doesn’t take much thought to see that such a man-made, self-serving “authority structure” such as this is pure Roman Catholicism through and through.
And once this evil system is imbibed by the church members, what is one example of the results of this teaching?
Here, I speak from sad experience. When one disagrees with the pastor’s sermon or questions a point of church doctrine, (like I did) your husband is then “counseled” by the pastor to separate from you in order to “teach you a lesson.” And if that doesn’t work, divorce is the next option.
This is the kind of monstrous evil that is being promulgated in many churches today, even as we speak! This is the sad state of affairs today and in my opinion, it is evil beyond words!
Believe me, I don’t mean to promote any site, but the website: http://www.wickedshepherds.com
speaks much about this evil that I am talking about. Their article A Word To The Wives goes into great, and yet sickening detail as to what I am trying to say. It is all-too-true!
There is absolutely no one else around who is talking about this evil in the church today!
Tracey
April 25th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
trusting GOD to deliver.
leaders are to be held to a greater standard, not perfect (how can you in good conscience redirect a concerned christian comments by saying no church is perfect). Dan is the leadership in the church being transparent or revealing in regards to the matters.
are the sins of the pdi/sgm’s leadership fruit truly being confessed or is it as john piper says leaders afraid circling the wagons to protect, not from an enemy but from the church itself–quite possibly the HOLY SPIRIT?
do you believe that only a leader a pastor can pull the fire alarm switch when smoke or flames are inside the house? where would our body’s strength be?
do you or can you see, not all who oppose you or are angry at this time are “nuts”? so many are concerned about the family, the children, sick and his church. your silence or nondisclosure breeds greater concern by the hurt or discerning. i am sure there are difficult legal political issues, but try dying to self. (this is hard for a group or corporation to do–it was also in JESUS’S time).
think about what that would means as a man of GOD. stop talking listen to those who once worshiped & penned notes from scripture in your very fellowship. the men and woman who were once children they ate their first bible crumbs at your table–many are now lost. remember those that gave to you? those who trusted you? your children played together. ask GOD to help you to hear a holy message that the Spirit of GOD may bring from the individuals that aren’t singing your same songs.
Dan, it is not enough to say don’t shoot the wounded, why did we train our Christians to shoot at each other? why was that even an option? maybe GOD placed these second class Christians in your path for such a time as this. would you dare to believe that you could have abandon your role as shepherd even for short time,perhaps to the benefit and prestige of a franchise. can you see that if the worst is true about what some say that Christ is big enough to bring you and you family thru and to keep you.
cj i dont understand the cloaking that it seems that your leaders do in reguarding some very real concerns. do you know as a father when were not being honest it can demagnetize our childs moral compass? as a father in the faith, it seem you could be exasperation the children GOD.
yes if they are in step, compliant, supportive that is unity! but if they have been hurt or neglected or sense error, should they be moved a notched or two down the class system? that’s not the gospel. but nether is a system of accountability of which all these precious young and old men may feel a need to comply to feed their families and keep the brand alive. look to see if lay elders–GODLY, holy men–would not seek to help this missed direction that may be alluding the gatekeepers.
i had thought it odd in the last few years that rev. swaggert and rev jim baker were more able to communicate remorse and ask for forgiveness. perhaps they were just despreate. i pray GOD help you to be desparate on these matters! we know you teach humility. we know you know humility. does the office not permit one to practice it openly? this is an open matter–its GODS reputation.
the harm? he will be made strong in your weekness. and as ken sande says everytime a leader, father, husband, man is open to the truth in confession, they will receve GOD’S favor and breed humility in those in the house. its just an appeal.
dan, danny, brent: remember the times that you preached that “if ever i find myself concerned about me, or my pride or agenda get in the way of the gospel, i pray that GOD would reprove me–that men would remove me”? i don’t know, maybe that time has come–or may be you didn’t expect GOD to use these broken, second-class citizens to bring the word of correction. you have always communicated issues and concerns or doctrinal variances within the nationalities of the church universal, to say “they’re off” or “they’re stepping over grace” or “they place too much emphasis” on this or that! do it to yourself. your confession–your self-denial–the gospel compels you to spend six months or a year openly understanding teaching, repenting, clarifying, and sending out letters full of love and mystery by asking forgiveness.
ask GOD to help you invite some for coffee, or for lunch the way JESUS would. take up the concerns of the weaker brothers. take the truth to peace makers, ask desiring god for help–you have helped & guided their ministries. ask 9 marks to help comb the nits out. these men or others will race to help in ways you may not be able to see now. no cult would ever invest that much time doing something so close to the heart of GOD. such as my stubborn heart before the alter of GOD, remember it doesn’t matter that all see you: repent! only glory goes to GOD. Matthew 10 would remind you “whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will for my sake will find it.” could a group find or lose ther lives for the sake some thing other?
with great affection for you & your ministries, and great sorrow those sheep (our brothers &sisters) who are by omission or commission dying.
August 23rd, 2009 at 2:48 pm
I am a member of an SGM church and I have no idea what you’re talking about. The leadership is tremendous. While I look up to them, I don’t worship them. I regularly discuss things I don’t agree with, or points I don’t think are expressed quite right. I’m still there, I’m “allowed” to teach.
I have met CJ, but I don’t know him personally. I’m impressed with his preaching; it’s right on and he’s very visual for us visual learners. I attended Larry Tomzac’s church and struggled with it from the beginning. It didn’t feel like a SGM church, he brushed me off when I tried to talk to him about things I didn’t agree with. When he was asked to step down, I agreed; Larry isn’t “evil” but he had some issues he refused to confront that were obvious to others.
How refreshing! I’d attended churchs (a Baptist one) where the assistant pastor was a jerk and used questionable business tactics in his own company. He’s still preaching today. Another had an affair and wasn’t excused. I love that our leaders are accountable and held to a standard as described by the Bible. Even the “big guys” will be asked to step down if it’s appropriate. If they see it, wonderful; if they are not yet convicted, all the more reason for them to step down.
We homeschool (many of our families don’t). It isn’t because of the church, but I appreciate the support. I attend a home group each week, again by choice, and value their insight. It doesn’t prevent me from going to God; quite the opposite.
I do not know Eric Simmons, but “phenomenal” is a synonym for “amazing” so it was used correctly, and while his imagery was clearly hyperbole, anyone who doesn’t agree with his point, “you can’t believe everything you read in a blog,” has some issues (wikipedia is a wonderful site in which all writers are accountable for conveying the truth; hardly the same thing as a blog.”
Is it possible some SGM churches lean over into legalism? Probably. Mine doesn’t, even Tomzac’s didn’t. Name a family of churches that don’t have some that go too far?
It is not a cult. I have expressed my difficulties with Brent’s preaching, which tends to have good points, only using torturous logic to get there. I haven’t been cast out.
Unity in foundational concepts; grace in inconsequentials.
Oh, and Sovereign Grace is not copyrighted; feel free to use sovereign grace as anything other than a proper noun and you’re fine. Even as a proper noun, as long as you’re not intentionally sowing confusion, go for it.
September 1st, 2009 at 8:01 am
I’ve joined a SGM church just this summer, selecting it precisely because I’ve found its members balanced in the understanding of sound doctrine and in loving application of their faith to others.
Living on the west coast I know little of the leaders mentioned here, but even if they are as flawed as some people here have suggested, I’d rather sit in their council than fellowship with dissenters who have no loving rebuke but instead are given over to cynicism.
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1 John 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:10 pm
I thought people were joking when they said there was an anti Sovereign Grace website out there. I have read through to the bottom of this site and have not found the slightest tidbit I could consider to be proof, much less a biblical defense of SGM being a cult. I have travelled all over the country and the world for that matter and have found Sovereign Grace churches to be the most biblically acurate and most humble churches I have expirienced. I personally know about 8 pastors from SG churches that are some of the most humble men I have ever met. Based on my reading of scripture. I would probably go with the humble guys that are preaching God’s word then the people that were offended that someone had the nerve to question their heart or behavior and felt a need to single handedly take down the movement of churches. Oh and by the way, I couldn’t agree more with Eric about Blog’s. The level of people that think they have something to say but are not educated or qualified to speak on it is at an all time high.I can only imagine how the apostle Paul would have brought correction on this topic.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:25 pm
Hey guys, thanks for putting in all the time and energy to respond to a blog post that was published nearly 18 months ago. Way to be on the ball there.
“I thought people were joking when they said there was an anti Sovereign Grace website out there.”
This isn’t one. Neither is SGM Refuge, and I wouldn’t even consider the SGM Survivors gang to be anti-SGM.
What do you call it when a man receive criticism as an expression of hatred?
There’s a family of churches I know of that would say it’s a sign of a proud, unteachable spirit. They often talk about this article called The Cross and Criticism by some guy named Alfred Poirier
Paul Tripp(maybe you’ve heard of him). Apparently they think it’s good; worth reading, even.But you’d never know if from the way their leaders (and members) respond to criticism.
September 4th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Sorry Travis, I still neglect to see where the leaders where wrong or needed critism on there actions. You, I assume, went through membership and understood that part of being a member of the church was to bring the tithe to the church. At some point you decided to make up your own rules about tithing and were offended when the pastors stuck to the biblical model which you agreed to. Not to be crude in an example, but if you joined the VFW or the Lions Club etc. and had to pay dues and then at some point decided you didn’t want to pay dues but wanted to give your money to a needy person and they said you couldn’t be a member because you didn’t want to follow the guidlines laid out….. Would that make them a cult? I haven’t read any biblical defense for your position yet. Actually Scripture is clear that the tithe is to be brought to the church. If you wanted to give to the needy that is great. Give away; or have a bake sale, or yard sale, but criticizing the church for not following your particle desire at that second seems a tad bizarre. Actually based on your account of the situation I would say that is the very church for me. Sign me up. Thank God there are churches out there that take a stand for what they believe is right and are not persuaded because someone God has not sovereignly appointed thinks the entire church should go in another direction. Understand I am just commentting on what I have read from your account and have seem in my own interactions with SGM. Nobody reading this blog could confidently say thay have all the facts. I certainly am not interested in getting into a debate with you or entertaining deviciveness. I am more concerned for people that stumble across this blog having had no personal contact with SGM and are easily persuaded by your personal interpretation of the conflict which may or may not be accurate. Typically there are three sides to every story; Yours, mine and The Truth. It seems we are receiving an over abundance of one of those sides.
By the way, The Cross and Criticism is an excellent article. I have learned a lot from it and endeavor to practice the teachings within. And actually Dr. Alfred Poirier wrote that article. Ted Tripp is also a fine writer though.
Proverbs 16:2 All a man’s ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
These have been food for my soul.
September 4th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Tony,
As I mentioned in another post, I addressed my concerns over their views of the tithe during our membership interview. We were accepted even with my concerns (in writing, on the membership application) that their “official” stance on tithing was unbiblical.
Actually, it’s funny that you mention not reading any Biblical defense of my position, as it was my post on tithing that began the series of pastoral meetings which ended in our leaving.
September 12th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
This quote just baffles me. Even if you were sitting around in your pajamas(I’m sure your not) what difference does that make? I must have missed the verse in the bible that says you can’t speak the truth in your pajamas. Does anyone remember seeing that in there?
October 13th, 2009 at 11:39 am
I find it sad that pretty much what everyone here is saying is based off of hearsay, how many of you have actually gone to this covenant life church or really talked to pastors of Sovereign grace ministries. If you have and you find things that are abnormally wrong (for we are all human and they are bound to be incorrect from time to time) than i would respect what you have to say. But i have lived in 3 states and gone to many many churches and out of the ones that i have attended, while they do have their flaws, Sovereign grace ministries and CLC would have to be in the top 5 churches as far as really living out what God has called us to do in the church. Most people on here seem to not be searching for the truth but simply judging instead of living by grace and letting God guide them, if they are in the wrong, than stop acting like Children and don’t get each other all riled up, this reminds me of a high school football team before they go play, everyone getting everyone else hyped up to go beat the “other” guys.
Matthew 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Thank you Tony you so clearly stated my main concern
October 13th, 2009 at 11:45 am
John,
“…how many of you have actually gone to this covenant life church or really talked to pastors of Sovereign grace ministries.”
Um… most of the people commenting here are either current or former members of an SGM church. And most of what we’re saying is our thoughts regarding an MP3 recording–that’s not hearsay.
So did you accidentally post your comment on the wrong thread? I’m confused.
October 14th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
it is a sad tragity when the church goes sideways any church .if our hope is to reflect the the perfect spotless image the lamb of god or the awseome power of our great iam.this is gods means of grace to effect our fallen world (condition)or( previous condition).why is it this broken model of “church” that was choosen ?that is a god question .we also see church interpetations as varied as the gifts ,so balance with the holy scriptures is very good .well if the church is founded in their douctrines ,then its members should be able to see the fruit and heart of the gospbel breathing and beating healthy .most illnesses in churches can come from three places -1 leaning to far on one belife(a true support) over looking preasious valuable belives like a cripple.2 the unrest misdirection from leaders unwilling see or hear a correction
October 14th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
3 is what evil satin pulls off while were adrift. so any other profitable comments are are prayer. dear god help all involved ,it is your church. pour your presious blood over both sides the museles of stiff necked leaders and the mouths of indivuals thirsty for faith some full of gravel ,keep them from chokeing .send the holy sprit to give of your liveing waters, wash memorys,visit brokenharted, heal households, the betrayed,hopelessness, the confused ,the arrogant. jesus help those whos arms or unsure of worship or some who won’t greet or hug a fellow brother in the grocery store or in church.make paths of peace clear to both side. those who havent taken communion visit them ,visit also those who have forgotten what bread & wine represent then swallow it any way .keep your love in our mind when we begin to think like cain.god pleace have mercy on this sin surrounding sgm.if we are unwilling to do this humbly ,pray you either stop the worship music untill we can attend to this or have mercy on our souls . thank you for both your tenderness and power you are our helperyou are our helper our helper.sprit be all around those who are sleeping as they begin to awake . weather by ommission or commission let no christian fall away.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
Hi
Am david from uganda, am man of 30 year, brown colour and midium hight, i recieved crist as my personal savoiur and am married but with no kid.i have achurch which i go to and in that church am the youth pastor, i went to a theological school and obtained my degree in theology.am a teacher by profession,andcurrently as i write to you,i have started a schooland currently it has 60 pupils.on addition to that i have started a fellowship known as LIFETALK CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP.This one helps to bring out testimonies like yhe one i have read on your website ie my work is to bring outvictims of life to light.We do this every saturdays to bring these people together to give out the testimonies.
My aim of writing this to you is when i read these testimonies i felt to have found some body whom we can partner.
i will be very happy if my partnership is considered,please feel free to ask me any thing am ready to answer it
GOD BLESS
January 24th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
I wish I lived close enough to Gaithersburg to attend CLC. Our family lived in Maryland for 2 years and we attended CLC for three months and SLC for a year. Both were awesome. I would say we liked CLC better, but it was a 45 minute drive to get there so we decided to pick a church that was closer.
If you didn’t like SG, then you don’t know what a good church looks like. A cult by definition departs from the essentials of the historic Christian faith as codified in the creeds. SG does not depart from the essentials, so they are not a cult. Just because you dislike them or do not agree with them, doesn’t mean they are a cult. No church is perfect. Find one that you agree with and stop being such a whiner and complainer! Read Josh Harris’ book Stop Dating the Church or Mark Dever’s 9 Marks of a Healthy Church
. These lay out biblical principals for finding a good church.
Until then, stop being that pathetic person that Eric Simmons was talking about complaining in their underwear. I tend to be critical and a complainer too, but it will never help your walk with Christ or the building up of others to keep selfishly “venting” all day. My kids get a spanking for whining. Maybe you need a good spanking!
February 8th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
I see two things here: people who don’t accept that they are SHEEP. people who don’t accept that they have a SHEPHERD. Is Christianity a cult? If you say no, then you have no clue about the nature of Christianity. Christianity is a cult, so much so, that Pliny (ancient figure writing to Caesar) equates Christianity with the Mystery Cults of his day. The term cult is bad in our day, but not then, and we are all part of a cult, no matter what we believe. cult(ure)…The sheep/shepherd analogy that Christ uses is cultic language. The real actual issue is not whether or not SovGrace is a cult, but whether or not a person is going to submit to the gifts and offices that Christ has set up in His Church. This is the post-modern mindset.
I have read of definite abuses of pastors in ALL churches. This doesn’t mean anything. Of course they would abuse their position, they are sinners.
Since, probably, no one here is trained in the Bible, nor called to pastor a church, but called to be a dumb sheep of God, think of Peter, our great example of the perfect pastor, and then rethink your position. We get mad when people make Christianity about what the Christian does, why aren’t we applying the same to SovGrace. C.J. or Simmons, et.al. are not Sovereign Grace Ministries, their message is.
I attend Grace Church San Diego, a Sovereign Grace affiliated church. I’m not a proud member of a cult, but a believer in the message that Christianity spreads: the Gospel. I know that you are proud of that too.
May God bless us with the remembrance of what His Son has done by the power of the Holy Spirit for His Own glory,
Chad Brewer
chadlovesjesus@hotmail.com
February 8th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
Chad, sounds like you need to go back and listen again to what your own pastor said last Sunday.
We have a shepherd. His name is Jesus. Anyone else who claims the title is trying to usurp His role in our lives.
February 9th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
This is a bummer. I honestly do not believe you are right about these guys. They are together for the Gospel of Our Lord. Its sad that there is disunity in the Church because people fear cultish tactics. And honestly. I have seen no cultish tactics at all whatsoever. I am encouraged to read the Word and am under Biblical teaching. Its sad that you preach disunity on the grounds of fear. I do admit I have seen or heard of things that werent the best choice. But that happens everywhere. I think the most important thing is that the Gospel is preached and people are getting saved.