1) No interest in the actual facts of complaints
2) No willingness to discuss policy
3) A belief that any disagreement with their policy is a disagreement with God and discredits Jesus

I wrote about this 9 months ago, gossip vs. lobbying. As for SGM not being a cult Sovereign Grace Ministries’ use of demotivational methods.

Good job in escaping this organization Travis.

(Travis’ note: Wow, that’s ignorant. And also pretty sketchy; “Foreigner” didn’t leave a valid e-mail address. I tried to respond, but I was told “user yello@mello.com does not exist (state 14).”)

Anyway, I just wanted to encourage you and thank you.

I’ve had my own experience with the church Mafia, my own blog and my own haters. So I understand.

Stay free and stay honest.

Thanks for the insights. Here’s my take: first off, you have no idea what steps I took to reconcile. I followed Matthew 18 to a “T”—including this post, which is my best effort in following the final step of the process. (And given that the Internet wasn’t around for nearly 2,000 years of Church history, it’s not surprising to find there’s no chapter-and-verse on internet discussions in the Bible.)

As for the Mark Driscoll books? The man in question was doing an independent thing; books were being given to friends regardless of where they went on Sundays. It had nothing to do with this local church or its pastors; they placed themselves into the situation, much like if my boss were to tell me who I could and couldn’t invite to a cookout I was planning with my wife. He may be an authority over me in some areas, but this really isn’t any of his business.

And given that this seems to be merely the tip of the iceberg when it comes to controlling and domineering situations within Sovereign Grace Ministries congregations… I fail to see how it’s anything but helpful for people to be able to see how widespread is the abuse of pastoral authority within the movement.

Thanks for stopping by, anyway.

I took the liberty of annotating your comment with related Scriptures. I hope you (and other readers) will find it… illuminating.

The only way I blame some pastors in some churches is that their lack of understanding of the word and then teaching their members so that they can have an understanding of biblical principles has contributed to such mishaps. That is why Jesus said in Matthew 13:19 “When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.”

Please go back and make up with the church. You do not have to be a member of that church but don’t violate the commandment of love and expect to be in the fellowship of the called.

Thanks

Came across your blog today. I live in Wadsworth, OH and work in Akron, OH. But I am a recent transplant from Pottstown, PA very close to Lancaster County. I’ll definitely keep a look out for this Sovereign Grace bunch around here. LOL.

I’ve had experience doing the same thing you’re doing, exposing cult-like behavior. It’s never pretty. But it’s good to see that those of us who are into Christian comic books are keeping a level head about things and being Berean, insteading of blindly beleiving pastors.

That being said, I never think that anyone is perfect or will follow a human blindly. We all make mistakes unfortunately. I am sorry that you had such a bad break with my church, and if you don’t mind the prayers of a big bad alleged cult member, with your permission I will include your family in my prayers (just like any other family that i run across in the blogosphere that interest me). God bless you, Brother.

Jim, I don’t know if Travis ever call SG a cult, but the more I look into the actual practices of SG (not what they say, but what they do) the more I am persuaded that they are certainly cultic.

Mr. G

It’s not gossip if it’s true, and it’s a believer’s biblical obligation to warn others to steer clear of teachers with dubious intentions.

“Ever time someone like you makes comments like this in a public place like this, or other blog sites, it does damage to the name of God. It does so by adding ammunition to those who are non-christians, who seek to discredit our Lord and the church. It just places in their head that, the church and the people are nothing but money hungry and will serve to drive them away.”

Buuuuut… what if it is true? Isn’t it better to say something… to publicly distance yourself from those teachers so non-believers don’t mistake your silence with agreement? To make the assumption that what they preach is what you believe and what the Bible teaches?

If teachers were held more accountable by the church, maybe all those televangelist scandals could’ve been averted. That definitely would’ve “saved face” for Christianity. False teachers given free reign have done more harm in regards to the non-believing public’s perception of Christians than any disgruntled ex-church members have.

I thought Protestants were against the idea of a Pope? So why elevate any single teacher or organization above accountability?

I swear, today’s church often wields a wet noodle instead of a sword…

Fair enough. And if the pastors hadn’t handled these situations the way they did, I wouldn’t have responded with this blog post. I’m glad we’ve reached some common ground.

As for references you made about my church being a cult, YOU ARE WRONG! AS WRONG AS YOU CAN BE!

I’ve known Jim Cannon for almost 30 years, and I can tell you that he is one of the most God fearing men that I know, I wish I were more like him.

Look at the date under this post’s title: I wrote the thing last September. You’re the one who dredged it up.

But you’re right. Bringing my wife and kids into this and threatening me with physical violence because I called your local church a cult… that’s nothing like the way a cult member would react. I stand corrected.

And while I’m blogging here, I take it personal that you call my church a cult, because believe me IT IS NOT A CULT!

Its a good thing that we NOT having this face to face because, believe me you don’t want me to be in your face for making comments like that! You gotta a lot of nerve making statements like THAT!

And after reading some of the things you’ve said here, I feel sorry for your wife and kids, for having someone like you for a husband and father!

I’ve sent you and e-mail to help you verify the family I was talking about. I didn’t make them up. Thanks for “dishonoring the name of our Lord” by jumping to such an accusation of a brother in Christ (though I see you call that into question, too).

The reason I went public like this is because in every case I know of where someone leaves a Sovereign Grace Ministries church on less than happy terms, the pastors will cover up the circumstances or say something like, “well, you don’t know the whole story.” I wanted to be able to share my side of the story once and for all.

I’m only dishonoring Christ if I’m lying. If I’m telling the truth, then it’s the pastors who are bringing Him shame. It’s people who try to shut the mouths of “whistleblowers” (instead of making leather whips to drive out the money-hungry) who are really discrediting our Savior.

I’m not expecting to find “the perfect church.” I’m just looking for a church. Too many pastors are running religious businesses. If you’re interested in the difference as I see it, check out what Alan Knox has to say. He writes much better than I could on the topic.

Oh, and dude: don’t crucify Jesus all over again. If you’ve been reborn, then He’s already granted His forgiveness for every sin: past, present and future. Confess your sin, repent… and thank. But there’s no extra forgiveness to be offered now.

So, thanks for discrediting the name of our Lord.
You call yourself a christian? You might want to think long and hard about that one.

One more thing, if you think you’ve found the perfect church to attend, you’ll want to leave it, because once you get there, it wont be perfect anymore!

Oh, by the way, I know I’m not perfect, that’s why I pray for God’s forgiveness, all the time.

I didn’t leave because Jim Cannon wanted me to tithe. I left because he insisted I was under God’s curse unless I took money from poor kids to line his wallet. I left because he couldn’t be bothered to help out a Godly, low-income family in the congregation (whom he also commanded to tithe to him) because he was too busy gathering pledges for his building campaign.

If you don’t think that matches Jim’s personality, I have an e-mail thread in which he told me that he’s convinced people only experience true poverty because of their sin (cf. Luke 13:1-5). I can pass it along to you if you don’t believe me.

“We gave our word a few years ago when we became members whether knowingly or unknowingly we would support our church financially.”

So you’re saying they tricked you? What is it with pastors taking their cues from Laban?

“Since the Scripture is clear…”

Actually, you’re misquoting. The Scriptures never say a charge against an elder is false simply because it’s singular; they merely say the congregation shouldn’t consider “defroking” a man on account of it. That said, I’ve documented events as well as I could–I’ve got a collection of e-mail correspondence and various documents sent to me by the pastors over this period. I can’t really bring in other witnesses, though, when the pastors always wanted to meet privately… y’know?

I consider myself the “first accuser” in this case. My complaint may fall on deaf ears, but maybe I can help the next person.

Another member of Travis’ former “cult”

I have enjoyed reading your blog for a while now. I agree with many of your posts! I agree about tithing. I think you are often right, and you’re always one to point out innaccuracies.
I just want to give you a kind warning from my experience with church disagreements and divisions: being right isn’t always most important. and if you *are* right, there is no need to drag other people into it (even if they are wrong) to prove youself. if you are right, God knows and you know, and in the long run the only thing people will remember from this situation is how you handled yourself, not how wrong the other party is.
its more important to show love and personal truthfulness than to point out the wrong in others. you will never be happy with a church with that outlook. you will ALWAYS find the bad in it, b/c there will always be something wrong with a church. sometimes bigger sometimes smaller. I do not doubt your good reason for leaving, but regardless of how *they* treat you or any other it’s still up to *you* to treat people with dignity, even if they don’t deserve it. I would have erased something from my blog if you linked to it negitively as well. who wouldn’t? that’s no proof of wrong doing. deal with the MAN of the family, not the woman… or her blog. she is the wife, not the person to discuss this with.

I’m confused why you treat this like a legal battle? as if you must prove them wrong before they prove you wrong? if you’re right you’re right and nothing will change that. I encourage you to have a meek attitude about this. do what you need to do to show our point without dragging as many people into as you can. I know you don’t know me at all, and you can look at my comment and think “who is she to tell me what to do?” and think another thing of it. but I implore you to take a scond look. I am the type that if I am right I get so wrapped up in proving what I know to be true that end up hurting myself and others more than neccesary. it’s taken me a long time to realize you do more damage this was, than good.

At times in the past, we thought about the tithing issue and is that issue a warrant to leave our church despite all the blessings we have received from our church through God. We gave our word a few years ago when we became members whether knowingly or unknowingly we would support our church financially. We realized we two or three issues at play with us, our covenant (membership agreement), our word and our tithing or giving. We thought long and hard on this and we are still with our church today. We believe that God will supply our means to give 10% even though we don’t agree with this doctrine, because our word, the unity of our church, and our membership means more to us than the issue of tithing. We still struggle though with the issue of tithing, we wish it wasn’t a bone of contention for us.

So, for you to understand where I am coming from, I need to ask you a few questions and if you are so kind, can you provide a response?

1. I know you are offended with your church and the church staff, what are you doing to resolve your anger issues with God and them? This will become bitterness and fester in your heart if not dealt with.

2. As a Godly man and I am hoping you are, what are you doing about the issues of church discipline and reconciliation? Have you spoken to Dave Harvey yet, since he is the overseeing Apostle/Pastor of your church?

3. Have you documented your evidence better? Since the Scripture is clear you must have two or three witnesses that support your claims against your church staff and church, otherwise the Scipture says you make false accusations against your church staff and church?

4. Have you gotten outside counsel from Godly men who are impartial to you and your church, who would listen to you and counsel you in these matters?

5. How would your divorce from this church affect others who are innocent in this matter? How would this division affect them?

Travis, I write these things to challenge you. I believe and hope you are a mature, Godly man who love Jesus Christ and His body and hope you do the biblical things in this matter.

Sincerely in Christ and your blog friend,
Paul Schafer
Bryan, TX

I don’t know what you agreed to when you became a member, but in our church you agree to support the church with your tithes. I am not excusing their behavior or lack of giving back, but if you agreed to that, then you should have been either doing it or what happened (your deciding to leave membership) should have happened. Sounds like what you decided was the right thing for you guys anyways.

I’ll be praying for you as you look for another place and/or group to worship with.

Praying for you guys and for Sovereign Grace Church.

So really, your accusing me of slander is slander.

I’ll be done with commenting and wish you guys well! Even though I don’t know you guys, I’ve enjoyed learning more about your family through the blogging. I hope that you find what you are looking for in a church.

I’ve loved reading your blog (and the theological controversy it has involved!) and I’ll continue to follow up with you guys through your blog.

And it’s really not about “making this personal”–it’s about warning others. What of the people who will be told on many occasions to submit to these men? Shouldn’t they be warned? Shouldn’t I love them, too?

Naming people specifically involved with promoting heresy or extrabiblical doctrine is, and should be, an uncomfortable last step, taken only after all other reasonable avenues at reconciliation have taken place. Anyone can make a mistake; it is the unrepentant attitude, elitist mentality, or the single-minded unwillingness of the brother in error to heed the truth that makes coming out into the open with damaging evidence at times an absolute necessity. If a thief, vandal, or worse lived in your neighborhood, ask yourself if you would not want to know the man’s name and where he lived, that you could guard both yourself and your family from harm. How much more, then, in dealing with spiritual issues—things of eternal significance—do we need to guard both our own souls and the souls of those entrusted to us by the Lord?

If I were you, I’d try not to make this personal (about Laurie and Jason). I would encourage you to love others as Christ would.

This is exactly the sort of thing I’ve experienced with Jim and Jason over and over again; when something they’ve said or done is cast in a poor light, they try to destroy all evidence of it happening.

Was she trying to hide the post itself, or just hide comments that were appearing on her blog because of my post? I don’t know, and I may never know.

Yet another example of why I couldn’t trust them.

I’m speechless.