Nicole and I have left Chesapeake Community Church, and some of our friends have asked why. Considering the circumstances surrounding our leaving (and the confusion some friends have expressed regarding it) I’ve decided to address the matter here.
You see, I’ve been in discussions with the pastors (regarding tithing) since our pre-membership interview with Jason Reyes (soon to be the new senior pastor of Covenant of Grace Church in Akron, OH). Sadly, they didn’t bother to even try to answer my questions until they found out that I had posted my thoughts on the tithe here at my blog. Even then, I was met with a general unwillingness to discuss my questions and concerns; rather, the conversation was continually focused on challenging my lack of trust in and respect for them. They couldn’t understand how my trust was largely dependent on their actions and approaches to my questions. You see, I did trust them when I joined Chesapeake in November of 2005. It was only after months of evading and ignoring my questions that I began to get exasperated with them. In the meantime, other things appeared on the radar that only added to my unease and distrust:
- The pastors paid themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars in 2006 (according to their own financial statement), while giving roughly $18,000 as “benevolence.” When asked about this, their response was that the issued Statement was not an accurate reflection of their financial activity.
- The pastors refused to support from the general fund–or even to collect a “special offering” for–a family in the congregation with known serious financial needs. Meanwhile, they collected a special offering to cover moving expenses for two pastors.
- Jim Cannon (the senior pastor) personally told me in front of Jason Reyes and a Care Group leader that his preference was for my membership status to be reevaluated should I choose not to tithe to him. Later, to illustrate his rationale for this, he drew parallels with a wife not trusting her husband to handle their money. But when I pointed out that I wouldn’t/shouldn’t/couldn’t Biblically divorce my wife over such a matter, his response was that a church membership wasn’t like a marriage.
- Jim also told me that in his study of the tithe, he had considered no extra-biblical writings on the subject of tithing penned before the Protestant Reformation. Thus, all early “Church Fathers” epistles, the Didache, Josephus’ writings, and any other works which could have shed first-hand light on how the early church viewed tithing… were ignored.
- Jim’s response was to call me a “freeloader” and claim that I had “integrity issues” when I told the pastors that not giving to Chesapeake was a matter of conscience: they had collected over $850,000 last year with, as I said before, only $18,000 (2.5%) going to those in need. (I took the money I would have given them, and instead gave it to organizations like Compassion International and Blood:Water Mission.)
And in the midst of all this, the pastors tried to shut down an evangelistic effort from a Godly man in the congregation—to spend time with some other Christian men in a pub, where they could interact with people on “neutral territory” and begin to develop relationships with them. The pastors also forbade this man to pass out copies of a Mark Driscoll book to his Christian friends until Jim had approved it, and they almost banned the men in our Care Group from going on a camping trip they were organizing. Why? Because they wouldn’t get back in time for the Sunday morning service.
From what I’ve seen, Sovereign Grace Church in Joppa, MD (their new name, as of September 12th) isn’t a local church. It really bears far more resemblance to a cult:
- The leaders are domineering and in some areas tyrannical;
- they have tried in numerous ways to psychologically manipulate the congregation;
- they demand trust rather than desiring to show themselves worthy of it;
- they are frightened of “their” people being exposed to “non-approved” books and ideas.
So that’s why I left. I tried to reason with them for nearly two years, but it has proven fruitless. The pastors are content to continue as they have, and it’s just become too heavy a burden. It’s kind of depressing, because I love the people I know at Chesapeake, but with the mindset that many people seem to have (that “we must attend the same church or else we can’t be friends”) it seems it’ll be extremely difficult to maintain our relationships.
So where is the Seitler family headed? I don’t know, but I’m definitely scarred from (and scared of) this overbearing leadership, and so we’re probably looking more toward a house church than toward any other “model.” In the meantime, we’ve actually enjoyed greater fellowship with other believers in the past few weeks than we had when we were in “the club”–and it was mostly due to opportunities that wouldn’t have been available to us if we were attending Sunday morning meetings and Wednesday night meetings and…
UPDATE #2: The post I linked “moving expenses” to (on a blog written by Jason Reyes’ wife Laurie) has been removed since my post appeared here this morning. Just to show you there really *was* a post there (and to let you still read it), here’s a screenshot of Laurie’s Delete Post from within Google Reader. It was the only place with a copy still available.
And here’s larger versions of the six pictures from that post (including the last one, which Jason’s actually in): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
I guess this is just another example of their tendency to cover things up instead of dealing with them.
UPDATE #2: Laurie now has a video on YouTube showing the house.
UPDATE #3: What do I mean by “cult”? Find out here.
Dude, I didn’t know you were JW.
…
….
Oh, wait…
Good for you for stepping out and taking such a public stand.
A man only has as much authority as others give him.
Sorry to hear about your experience. If you’re investigating other things, you might want to check out the book Shaping of Things to Come, by Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch. I’m not sure it’s my cup of tea, but they have a lot of interesting and challenging things to say. Some of our current church (not Mars Hill, since we left there for reasons I could talk about offline) looks like their model. The Irresistible Revolution is a good book for reimagining the church as well.
Thanks, Aaron! I’ll have to add those books to my wish list.
I’m sad that you guys are leaving. I wish that it didn’t come to this. From what you typed here, I hope that some of this was a stretch from the actual truth.
I’m speechless.
I wish I could say it was a stretch, Beth, but look at my update: the post on Laurie’s blog that I linked to here? It’s been deleted since my post went up this morning.
This is exactly the sort of thing I’ve experienced with Jim and Jason over and over again; when something they’ve said or done is cast in a poor light, they try to destroy all evidence of it happening.
Was she trying to hide the post itself, or just hide comments that were appearing on her blog because of my post? I don’t know, and I may never know.
Yet another example of why I couldn’t trust them.
I’m not seeing the connection between the house that they wanted in Wadsworth with your post about moving expenses? I am not trying to argue at all here, in fact, I’m a saddened by your experiences, I’m just wondering how their house and your post about moving expenses relate?
If I were you, I’d try not to make this personal (about Laurie and Jason). I would encourage you to love others as Christ would.
Well, the connection (in my mind at least) is that there is a real need within the congregation (and known by the pastors–many of us have been asking them to step in for over a year now), and instead a collection was taken for a family who seems to be able to handle their expenses just fine, to look at the house they had under contract. Why was a collection taken up for the second family? Because the head of that household is one of the “bosses” of the organization. So he gets preferential treatment.
And it’s really not about “making this personal”–it’s about warning others. What of the people who will be told on many occasions to submit to these men? Shouldn’t they be warned? Shouldn’t I love them, too?
Our church is not made up of thieves and vandals. This has been taken to a ridiculous level! I understand your frustrations, but really, none of this had to take place. You could have left in peace. Linking Laurie’s post about her house really took it to a new level — by relaying the message to the internet world that they were looking for money to support this move into their new home. How hurtful and you know better.
I’ll be done with commenting and wish you guys well! Even though I don’t know you guys, I’ve enjoyed learning more about your family through the blogging. I hope that you find what you are looking for in a church.
I’ve loved reading your blog (and the theological controversy it has involved!) and I’ll continue to follow up with you guys through your blog.
I am not hiding anything. I just don’t want to have my blog connected to yours in any way. I think you can understand that given your slanderous comments about my dad and my husband. Even though I know you don’t mean for this to be personal, it feels very personal to me.
Laurie, slander is “The oral utterance or spreading of a falsehood harmful to another’s reputation.” What I’ve written here about your dad and husband is the truth.
So really, your accusing me of slander is slander.
Well, I guess that answers my Facebook question. Whoa! I think that is all I can say.
Yowza.
Praying for you guys and for Sovereign Grace Church.
Wow, how amazing that they would treat you like that. Good luck in leaving.
I thought of something to say!
I don’t know what you agreed to when you became a member, but in our church you agree to support the church with your tithes. I am not excusing their behavior or lack of giving back, but if you agreed to that, then you should have been either doing it or what happened (your deciding to leave membership) should have happened. Sounds like what you decided was the right thing for you guys anyways.
I’ll be praying for you as you look for another place and/or group to worship with.
Oh! I forgot to add that them not answering your questions wasn’t right either (should have been up there with not excusing their behavior and lack of giving back). It boggles my mind that they just avoided you!
Travis,
I read your blogpost in my Google Reader a couple days ago and talked to my wife about apart of your situation.
At times in the past, we thought about the tithing issue and is that issue a warrant to leave our church despite all the blessings we have received from our church through God. We gave our word a few years ago when we became members whether knowingly or unknowingly we would support our church financially. We realized we two or three issues at play with us, our covenant (membership agreement), our word and our tithing or giving. We thought long and hard on this and we are still with our church today. We believe that God will supply our means to give 10% even though we don’t agree with this doctrine, because our word, the unity of our church, and our membership means more to us than the issue of tithing. We still struggle though with the issue of tithing, we wish it wasn’t a bone of contention for us.
So, for you to understand where I am coming from, I need to ask you a few questions and if you are so kind, can you provide a response?
1. I know you are offended with your church and the church staff, what are you doing to resolve your anger issues with God and them? This will become bitterness and fester in your heart if not dealt with.
2. As a Godly man and I am hoping you are, what are you doing about the issues of church discipline and reconciliation? Have you spoken to Dave Harvey yet, since he is the overseeing Apostle/Pastor of your church?
3. Have you documented your evidence better? Since the Scripture is clear you must have two or three witnesses that support your claims against your church staff and church, otherwise the Scipture says you make false accusations against your church staff and church?
4. Have you gotten outside counsel from Godly men who are impartial to you and your church, who would listen to you and counsel you in these matters?
5. How would your divorce from this church affect others who are innocent in this matter? How would this division affect them?
Travis, I write these things to challenge you. I believe and hope you are a mature, Godly man who love Jesus Christ and His body and hope you do the biblical things in this matter.
Sincerely in Christ and your blog friend,
Paul Schafer
Bryan, TX
Travis,
I have enjoyed reading your blog for a while now. I agree with many of your posts! I agree about tithing. I think you are often right, and you’re always one to point out innaccuracies.
I just want to give you a kind warning from my experience with church disagreements and divisions: being right isn’t always most important. and if you *are* right, there is no need to drag other people into it (even if they are wrong) to prove youself. if you are right, God knows and you know, and in the long run the only thing people will remember from this situation is how you handled yourself, not how wrong the other party is.
its more important to show love and personal truthfulness than to point out the wrong in others. you will never be happy with a church with that outlook. you will ALWAYS find the bad in it, b/c there will always be something wrong with a church. sometimes bigger sometimes smaller. I do not doubt your good reason for leaving, but regardless of how *they* treat you or any other it’s still up to *you* to treat people with dignity, even if they don’t deserve it. I would have erased something from my blog if you linked to it negitively as well. who wouldn’t? that’s no proof of wrong doing. deal with the MAN of the family, not the woman… or her blog. she is the wife, not the person to discuss this with.
I’m confused why you treat this like a legal battle? as if you must prove them wrong before they prove you wrong? if you’re right you’re right and nothing will change that. I encourage you to have a meek attitude about this. do what you need to do to show our point without dragging as many people into as you can. I know you don’t know me at all, and you can look at my comment and think “who is she to tell me what to do?” and think another thing of it. but I implore you to take a scond look. I am the type that if I am right I get so wrapped up in proving what I know to be true that end up hurting myself and others more than neccesary. it’s taken me a long time to realize you do more damage this was, than good.
Travis,
I miss you bro.
Thank you for your comments about our church. Unfortunately I do not have the guts you do to leave the church, but I have stopped tithing there. I intend to take those tithes to the next Church that God leads me to. I miss you and your family.
I had a friend at work who told me that my church was a cult. I didn’t believe her until I started questioning the leadership myself and received the same push back that you did. I also became sickened by the cliques that develop within this church.
I will be happily leaving the church soon for many of the same reasons you left, as well as others.
I will be contacting you soon to get together hopefully. I am not one of those “you must go to my church if we are going to be friends” friends. I just had no clue where you were until I read this blog. My sin was in taking it personally that you left without telling me, and to that I apologize. I’ll make you some brownies to show you how sorry I am
Another member of Travis’ former “cult”
Paul, what would you recommend if you learned a man in your congregation was regularly beating his wife and young children? What would you tell them to put up with for the sake of “unity”?
I didn’t leave because Jim Cannon wanted me to tithe. I left because he insisted I was under God’s curse unless I took money from poor kids to line his wallet. I left because he couldn’t be bothered to help out a Godly, low-income family in the congregation (whom he also commanded to tithe to him) because he was too busy gathering pledges for his building campaign.
If you don’t think that matches Jim’s personality, I have an e-mail thread in which he told me that he’s convinced people only experience true poverty because of their sin (cf. Luke 13:1-5). I can pass it along to you if you don’t believe me.
“We gave our word a few years ago when we became members whether knowingly or unknowingly we would support our church financially.”
So you’re saying they tricked you? What is it with pastors taking their cues from Laban?
“Since the Scripture is clear…”
Actually, you’re misquoting. The Scriptures never say a charge against an elder is false simply because it’s singular; they merely say the congregation shouldn’t consider “defroking” a man on account of it. That said, I’ve documented events as well as I could–I’ve got a collection of e-mail correspondence and various documents sent to me by the pastors over this period. I can’t really bring in other witnesses, though, when the pastors always wanted to meet privately… y’know?
I consider myself the “first accuser” in this case. My complaint may fall on deaf ears, but maybe I can help the next person.
Hey Bro. I was once a member at CCC. I got kicked out for moral reasons,which I understand, But I dont want to add to your bitterness, get over it, they are not perfect, are you?
It has been several months since I have commented here and about this issue. I’d like to apologize to Travis for the things I said in my last comment. I am not going to post my opinion on the matter, but I would like to apologize for not taking into consideration your feelings. I should not judge. So, I’m sorry!
I’m so sorry you and your family had to go thru all that.
Travis, I’ve just been reading your blog and I think you have a chip on your shoulder. I never heard of any family in the church that is in financial need as you have stated. If there is, then I believe that the church would help them. It sounds like to me you have some issues to deal with, and until you deal with them you’ll be going through the same thing over and over with whatever church you go to. It also saddens me that you want to air your dirty laundry on the internet like this, so that you bring shame and dishonor to the fair name of our Lord by your accusations of men who have committed their lives to serving Him. Ever time someone like you makes comments like this in a public place like this, or other blog sites, it does damage to the name of God. It does so by adding ammunition to those who are non-christians, who seek to discredit our Lord and the church. It just places in their head that, the church and the people are nothing but money hungry and will serve to drive them away.
So, thanks for discrediting the name of our Lord.
You call yourself a christian? You might want to think long and hard about that one.
One more thing, if you think you’ve found the perfect church to attend, you’ll want to leave it, because once you get there, it wont be perfect anymore!
Oh, by the way, I know I’m not perfect, that’s why I pray for God’s forgiveness, all the time.
Jim,
I’ve sent you and e-mail to help you verify the family I was talking about. I didn’t make them up. Thanks for “dishonoring the name of our Lord” by jumping to such an accusation of a brother in Christ (though I see you call that into question, too).
The reason I went public like this is because in every case I know of where someone leaves a Sovereign Grace Ministries church on less than happy terms, the pastors will cover up the circumstances or say something like, “well, you don’t know the whole story.” I wanted to be able to share my side of the story once and for all.
I’m only dishonoring Christ if I’m lying. If I’m telling the truth, then it’s the pastors who are bringing Him shame. It’s people who try to shut the mouths of “whistleblowers” (instead of making leather whips to drive out the money-hungry) who are really discrediting our Savior.
I’m not expecting to find “the perfect church.” I’m just looking for a church. Too many pastors are running religious businesses. If you’re interested in the difference as I see it, check out what Alan Knox has to say. He writes much better than I could on the topic.
Oh, and dude: don’t crucify Jesus all over again. If you’ve been reborn, then He’s already granted His forgiveness for every sin: past, present and future. Confess your sin, repent… and thank. But there’s no extra forgiveness to be offered now.
I also notice that the name of this blog is, Moving On. Maybe that’s what you should do, Move On, Get Over It, Put It Behind You.
And while I’m blogging here, I take it personal that you call my church a cult, because believe me IT IS NOT A CULT!
Its a good thing that we NOT having this face to face because, believe me you don’t want me to be in your face for making comments like that! You gotta a lot of nerve making statements like THAT!
And after reading some of the things you’ve said here, I feel sorry for your wife and kids, for having someone like you for a husband and father!
Jim,
Look at the date under this post’s title: I wrote the thing last September. You’re the one who dredged it up.
But you’re right. Bringing my wife and kids into this and threatening me with physical violence because I called your local church a cult… that’s nothing like the way a cult member would react. I stand corrected.
Well, if you hadn’t made this blog then I would not have responded in the way I did. By the way, I never threatened you with physical violence, I just said that’s its not a good thing that we were not having this face to face, you simply made the assumption that I was threatening you, which I wasn’t. As for bringing your wife and kids into this, I apologize for that, I should not have brought them into this so, I ask your forgiveness for that.
As for references you made about my church being a cult, YOU ARE WRONG! AS WRONG AS YOU CAN BE!
I’ve known Jim Cannon for almost 30 years, and I can tell you that he is one of the most God fearing men that I know, I wish I were more like him.
“Well, if you hadn’t made this blog then I would not have responded in the way I did.”
Fair enough. And if the pastors hadn’t handled these situations the way they did, I wouldn’t have responded with this blog post. I’m glad we’ve reached some common ground.
I have attended CCC. While I would not label it a cult, I have seen issues with helping the poor, members in trouble and choosing work on the pastors houses over evangalistic efforts. I know Travis and I know Jim. I know that there is no perfect church on earth. I have not known Travis long but I do know he is a godly man. I have seen things that he talks about. It is admirable for Jim to stick up for his church, although I have also taken it as threatening. I think that each makes their own choice whether to stay at a church or not. But let’s not judge each others christianity without all of the facts.
Any time one has to resort to name calling, threats and personal insults to get their point across, it pretty much undermines whatever valid point they might have had… in my book, anyway…
It’s not gossip if it’s true, and it’s a believer’s biblical obligation to warn others to steer clear of teachers with dubious intentions.
“Ever time someone like you makes comments like this in a public place like this, or other blog sites, it does damage to the name of God. It does so by adding ammunition to those who are non-christians, who seek to discredit our Lord and the church. It just places in their head that, the church and the people are nothing but money hungry and will serve to drive them away.”
Buuuuut… what if it is true? Isn’t it better to say something… to publicly distance yourself from those teachers so non-believers don’t mistake your silence with agreement? To make the assumption that what they preach is what you believe and what the Bible teaches?
If teachers were held more accountable by the church, maybe all those televangelist scandals could’ve been averted. That definitely would’ve “saved face” for Christianity. False teachers given free reign have done more harm in regards to the non-believing public’s perception of Christians than any disgruntled ex-church members have.
I thought Protestants were against the idea of a Pope? So why elevate any single teacher or organization above accountability?
I swear, today’s church often wields a wet noodle instead of a sword…
Travis,
You rock. I am so grateful that you had the guts to post what really happened at your local SGM franchise, and that God has blessed you with a sharp mind and quick wit to survive the ordeal. What you shared served as a confirmation to our family when the same pattern of behavior arose at our local church. (also SGM)
Jim, I don’t know if Travis ever call SG a cult, but the more I look into the actual practices of SG (not what they say, but what they do) the more I am persuaded that they are certainly cultic.
Mr. G
Wow Travis,it gets pretty sticky when you actually have some proof of the fact that leaders have messed up! Threatening slander doesn’t quite shut you up in this case. I can’t believe how easy it was for you to stir up the pharisees, I can see why Jesus referred to them as a brood of viper, they strike out with their fangs the second you get close to the truth…praying for you and your family, thanks for standing up so fearlessly for the truth.
Oh and I noticed a VERY strong theme of condemnation running through, you might need to go take a grace bath!
Oh my. I used to go to CCC when I was a teenager when Mike Phillips was still the senior pastor. Just recently I have come back with my family and I have loved my experience there. Oh, as a disclaimer i was best friends with Laurie as a teenager (and she is still one of my dearest friends). Spent many a weekend at her house as a teenager so I do have a love for her and her family as people. Do I think they are infallible??? Of course not, but I do love them as family.
That being said, I never think that anyone is perfect or will follow a human blindly. We all make mistakes unfortunately. I am sorry that you had such a bad break with my church, and if you don’t mind the prayers of a big bad alleged cult member,
with your permission I will include your family in my prayers (just like any other family that i run across in the blogosphere that interest me). God bless you, Brother.
Thanks, Karen.
And while such permission is never necessary, it’s granted nonetheless. 
Travis-
Came across your blog today. I live in Wadsworth, OH and work in Akron, OH. But I am a recent transplant from Pottstown, PA very close to Lancaster County. I’ll definitely keep a look out for this Sovereign Grace bunch around here. LOL.
I’ve had experience doing the same thing you’re doing, exposing cult-like behavior. It’s never pretty. But it’s good to see that those of us who are into Christian comic books are keeping a level head about things and being Berean, insteading of blindly beleiving pastors.
You probably do not belong there. Any time a member of any church has no trust on the pastor or the shepherd of the flock, then the relationship is non-existent. You need to listen to word based messages. Men like Kenneth E. Hagin. A sheep does not question the direction the shepherd is heading. Men like you are not teachable anyway. You use sense knowledge to counteract the word of God. Everything has to be rationalized or make sense or you will not believe. We walk by faith and not by sight. When you release that tithe, it is unto God. It is not up you to determine how it is to be used. You should concentrate on believing for your return. When Abraham tithed to Melchezedek and he blessed him, it was not up to Abraham to come back and say “By the way Melchezedek, how did you spend the spoils that I gave you on my return from the battle of the Kings.” (Travis’ Note: Leon, you apparently haven’t read my post, “What Does the Bible Say About Tithing?“)
The only way I blame some pastors in some churches is that their lack of understanding of the word and then teaching their members so that they can have an understanding of biblical principles has contributed to such mishaps. That is why Jesus said in Matthew 13:19 “When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.”
Please go back and make up with the church. You do not have to be a member of that church but don’t violate the commandment of love and expect to be in the fellowship of the called.
Thanks
Leon,
I took the liberty of annotating your comment with related Scriptures. I hope you (and other readers) will find it… illuminating.
I have to wonder what good it can possibly do to air the issues of a local church out on the internet? This is a disturbing trend that is developing. Why on earth, if you truly have the best interest of reconciliation and your local church in mind would you spread a one-sided story naming names for the whole world to see? As far as some of the things you mention, (the Bible study in the pub, Mark Driscoll books, etc.) it is certainly within the right and discrimination of church leadership whether to endorse such a thing or the books that would be handed out. While they cannot (and should not) ultimately seek to control YOU, they should certainly be “on guard” as to what the Church name is endorsing (especially when it comes to folks like Mark Driscoll and folks of his ilk). In my experience (as a church staff member for the past 18 years) there is always more to the story that perhaps even the members themselves do not know. In any case, I see no Biblical precedent for airing it all out on the internet for everyone to see. You certainly didn’t follow the Biblical direction in attempting to reconcile, but, instead, sought to “win the argument” by airing a one-sided, dirty-laundry-type story/post. As far as “tithing” that certainly is something that is between you and God. When we “tithe” we aren’t tithing to a person, or a leader, but to God Himself. While that needs to be recognized, it also should be noted that in a healthy personal relationship with God, tithing is (should be) a joyful act that helps further Christ’s kingdom here on earth. To say that church leadership can’t correct, instruct or encourage someone to tithe is ridiculous as it is a Biblical concept. But certainly you cannot/should not be made or coerced to tithe or give. In the end, though. The church is not served, God is not served, and you are not served well by causing further dissension and division by posting things like this that should be handled in private or at the local church level.
Mike,
Thanks for the insights. Here’s my take: first off, you have no idea what steps I took to reconcile. I followed Matthew 18 to a “T”—including this post, which is my best effort in following the final step of the process. (And given that the Internet wasn’t around for nearly 2,000 years of Church history, it’s not surprising to find there’s no chapter-and-verse on internet discussions in the Bible.)
As for the Mark Driscoll books? The man in question was doing an independent thing; books were being given to friends regardless of where they went on Sundays. It had nothing to do with this local church or its pastors; they placed themselves into the situation, much like if my boss were to tell me who I could and couldn’t invite to a cookout I was planning with my wife. He may be an authority over me in some areas, but this really isn’t any of his business.
And given that this seems to be merely the tip of the iceberg when it comes to controlling and domineering situations within Sovereign Grace Ministries congregations… I fail to see how it’s anything but helpful for people to be able to see how widespread is the abuse of pastoral authority within the movement.
Thanks for stopping by, anyway.
Hi Travis I was considering this church prior to reading. Thanks for the blog. My family will soon be moving from pa to md. I looked for as much info as I could and am greatful. I have encountered these and other problems in churches previously. I would love to speek with you and your family personaly. Maybe we could benefit each other. I was interested in the school aspect also. Would you have any thoughts on that as well. The church today is not what church should be. We should not attend for the reasons people do. Love to discuss with you further.
Travis, way to go! It’s funny how people are quick to tell you, you are hurting the body of Christ when you speak of situations that are hurting the body of Christ.
Anyway, I just wanted to encourage you and thank you.
I’ve had my own experience with the church Mafia, my own blog and my own haters. So I understand.
Stay free and stay honest.
Travis, I am so glad that someone leaving that God forsaken church (and I do mean that God left them a long time ago) had the courage to say what you did. I used attend CCC and the school as well, for over 10 years. When my family decided to leave to go to another church I couldn’t figure out why. My dad had left years before my mom and brother. He knew long before we ever did. We hung on every word they said. We grew up there, my mom was the secretary and served faithfully with little to no pay for 10 years to pay for our eductaion. She ran that school. We figured out what our tuition costed and she would have made about $2per hour. How could they afford to pay everyone else so great and treat my mom like the scum of the earth. We were poor and everyone around us bought name brand stuff. We didn;t have that and we were still were okay. Then my mom had asked if my brother could at least finish out his sofmore year there since they had left to go to another church. They said that he couldn’t stay unless they counciled him on their faith…their faith…I though it was God’s church. And I thoght that is what we grew up on, their faith. They changed their doctrines and their beliefs. He had been there since kindergarten. It was so disheartening for him knowing that he would have to start all over when he wanted to graduate from there with his class like I had done. We finished out the year (barely)and I left with my family. Talk about out of sight out of mind. None of them talked to me for years, but they sure as hell spread enough crap around there about my family. So good for you…I am glad someone stepped out and I feel sorry for all those who are blinded by lies and who get put in a position of power so they can’t leave. Here is to all those that left and here’s praying for those who desparatly want to leave but are stuck there most likley because of spouses.
You know, anything Jim Cannon and his family are connected with always smells sort of like rotten fish. I went to this church years and years ago, before Jason and Laurie were even married and actually hated each others guts. At the time, I always was uncomfortable at the church, and left after about 6 months. I worked with Jason and Laurie over the Summer and knew both of them away from the church. This church always seemed strange, and from the resulting outcry of people who have left, I don’t know if I would characterize it as a cult, but the whole system with SGM seems to be very like the mormons. Only approved reading material, and the legalistic approach in regards to other issues. I still know people who attend this church, and their holier than thou attitude just sickens me, and sets a terrible example for others.
Travis,
I know this is an older post, but can I just say, you are a brave soul. I used to attend a different SGM church, and I know how they like to spend their money. All of the pastors live in nice big houses in wealthy areas. Every single pastor lived better off than me, and yet I was still expected to ‘sacrifice’ for the “Mission Fund”, which was not what a normal Christian would think of when hearing the word “mission”, but essentially an offering to build a coffee shop in the church lobby. That was the mission!
And also, ‘benevloence’ in those financial statements sometimes also include the ‘gifts’ the pastors give each other just to ‘bless’ them! There is almost no money given to needy families, either inside or outside the church. At least, that’s how it was at the church I went to. And I”m guessing it’s true in others as well.
Why didn’t you just double your tithe? Give 20%; 10% to church and 10% to needy familes, etc. You’re American. I’m pretty sure your house is full of needless luxuries. You could afford it and you would have actively loved your perceived oppressors and honored your leaders.
(Travis’ note: Wow, that’s ignorant. And also pretty sketchy; “Foreigner” didn’t leave a valid e-mail address. I tried to respond, but I was told “user yello@mello.com does not exist (state 14).”)
Wow. That’s very, very sad. As a pastor (well, almost a pastor, I’m serving a church, but still completing my MDiv at Calvin Theological Seminary. Unfortunately there’s sin everywhere, especially in my life. Reading these posts, and others at Sovereign Grace Survivors makes me sad. I know the same problems exist in my denomination (Christian Reformed Church in North America), and the potential totally lurks in my own ministry. It is sobering to see how quickly Satan can manipulate leadership (Consider Satan’s attack on Israel, inciting David to take up a census). Please keep praying for those who have hurt you (I just read in a book that Jimmy Bakker has totally repented of his sin), and pray for all pastors!
Ran into this while searching for something else. Seems to be very typical SGM response to just about any criticism:
1) No interest in the actual facts of complaints
2) No willingness to discuss policy
3) A belief that any disagreement with their policy is a disagreement with God and discredits Jesus
I wrote about this 9 months ago, gossip vs. lobbying. As for SGM not being a cult Sovereign Grace Ministries’ use of demotivational methods.
Good job in escaping this organization Travis.
I just found this blog today. I just wanted to post that I am proud of you Travis, for stepping out and raising legitimate concerns about this church. You have every right to “wrestle with your faith” and then you go to the people who should be leading you spiritually and they give you answers that cause you to question their integrity. Your response to that tells me that you are a “God fearing/ loving” person and that you have a genuine care for others. I pray that God continues to bless you and keep you.
You know, it’s funny that I came across this page…I was checking out CCC online and found it. And, let me say that I am not in the least bit surprised. I left there I guess it was the end of 2005, and I see that all the issues present then are alive and well! The church has good and bad people in it, as everywhere-but the leadership under Jim is a debacle to say the least. His pride, hypocrisy, and arrogance shines like the noonday sun. And don’t you dare go up against him, because he will attempt to destroy you. I remember him threatening to kick me off of prison ministry and usher staff because I did not fall in line with his desires. Well, I didn’t then, and I don’t now, and I really could not care less what comes out of that scene, or what people there think. I still say the same thing!! It is a caricature of a system that is driven by fear of man, while all the time preaching against it. I left and never looked back. As far as benevolence, let me tell ya what the SOB did: I was arrested for robbing an old lady, case of mistaken identity. Cut and dry, I was at a children’s church party in my honor when the crime was committed. They caught the real guy later. Well, we ended up doing a little collection, and before doing that, Jim asked me if I was really innocent, or did I do it? That is the way he thinks. And Jason is no better, lol, what a clown!!! But let me just say that looking back, I had the same issue as them, which was pride and arrogance, self-righteousness. It’s just that they were the ones in charge. So I rebelled, much like you are doing, but ultimately it did no good. There were no winners. I would say just get out of there like you are then let it go. Those idiots will get theirs, and they already are-because a proud man’s desires are insatiable. Their punishment is carried everyday as a burden. They look over their shoulders, try to protect and preserve what is theirs, and seek to destroy anyone in the way. But they really aren’t all that-just some arrogant guys who are selfish. They are not even given a second glance in the real world. And it’s a dog’s life!!! They can have it. And I am scarred by their bad leadership too, and will take time, but I did learn alot. Look, I do applaud you, and I say more power to ya…and screw them clowns!! They can kiss my rear, so pucker up Jim and Jason!! If I were you, I would just move on. They are not gonna yield, DEFINITELY are not worth it, and the fight could be costly.