Comments on: What Does the Bible Say About Tithing? http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html If I have to explain it... Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:05:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: M Green http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20968 M Green Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:05:56 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20968 I found your site because I'm always trying to read more on this subject. Yours is the first that hits all that I found in the Bible for myself nearly 2 years ago. Many that I found hits several of these points, but adds weird stuff that is more opinionated commentary than actual scripture, so I was happy to run across your post. One thing I've never understood is how people can say that we are free from all the old laws except this one. You know, Jesus also told the sick man in Matt 8:1-4 to go and offer a sacrifice, but no one uses THAT as an excuse to offer up an animal as sacrifice. If anyone really reads the New Testament for themselves it becomes impossible to see that this is more of a picking and choosing of the old laws that none of us are under anymore. I got the Matt 23:23 verse flashed up on the projector screen for a while when I was still attending the big church. Noticeably absent (and represented with ... in it's place) was WHAT was mentioned what the Pharisees tithed. Sorry, but that's just underhanded. I've even heard that if we don't tithe, we aren't forgiven. Why? Because we are paying for our salvation? As far as how a church is supposed to run without relying on the 10% income they can rely on from their members instead of receiving in faith (like they tell us to do as we fork over our children's lunch money for tithe), well, I suspect that our churches should look more like what Paul had going on. I find it appalling that we are to go out and make disciples of all men, but those of us not at the head of a large church are expected to do so because it's an all consuming flame of passion that we have in our savior, but that pastors of large churches get to claim payment for their "obeying" part of the commandment. How is that NOT like a Pharisee? And the cheerful giver verse? Well you have to read the WHOLE verse: "Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give WHAT HE HAS DECIDED IN HIS HEART TO GIVE, not reluctantly or UNDER COMPULSION, for God loves a cheerful giver. -2 Corinthians 9:6-7 No mention of HOW MUCH to give, only HOW to give--generously and what you decided in your heart to give. Yet this has been quoted at that church I stopped going to as a reason to tithe 10%. The Pastor actually said that it meant that if you give you WILL be cheerful, so give and be cheerful. Anyway, I hate the thought of stirring the pot on this blog again in 2010, as I'm sure that after 3 years you're probably ready to let it die down. But, what you said and how you handled the comments (in the early years--that last one was a bit snappish, though understandably so--the hypocrisy of mentioning it in my own somewhat snappy comment is not lost on me, I promise) is an example to us all. And, you guided us all biblically--you ONLY quoted what was in the bible, AND you told us to search it out ourselves. We should all be doing that. This is important work you've started. You're going to face naysayers a lot. But, none of these naysayers have quoted any of the references in context to the meaning. You have. Now, onto your other posts... I found your site because I’m always trying to read more on this subject. Yours is the first that hits all that I found in the Bible for myself nearly 2 years ago. Many that I found hits several of these points, but adds weird stuff that is more opinionated commentary than actual scripture, so I was happy to run across your post.

One thing I’ve never understood is how people can say that we are free from all the old laws except this one. You know, Jesus also told the sick man in Matt 8:1-4 to go and offer a sacrifice, but no one uses THAT as an excuse to offer up an animal as sacrifice.

If anyone really reads the New Testament for themselves it becomes impossible to see that this is more of a picking and choosing of the old laws that none of us are under anymore.

I got the Matt 23:23 verse flashed up on the projector screen for a while when I was still attending the big church. Noticeably absent (and represented with … in it’s place) was WHAT was mentioned what the Pharisees tithed. Sorry, but that’s just underhanded.

I’ve even heard that if we don’t tithe, we aren’t forgiven. Why? Because we are paying for our salvation?

As far as how a church is supposed to run without relying on the 10% income they can rely on from their members instead of receiving in faith (like they tell us to do as we fork over our children’s lunch money for tithe), well, I suspect that our churches should look more like what Paul had going on. I find it appalling that we are to go out and make disciples of all men, but those of us not at the head of a large church are expected to do so because it’s an all consuming flame of passion that we have in our savior, but that pastors of large churches get to claim payment for their “obeying” part of the commandment. How is that NOT like a Pharisee?

And the cheerful giver verse? Well you have to read the WHOLE verse:
“Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give WHAT HE HAS DECIDED IN HIS HEART TO GIVE, not reluctantly or UNDER COMPULSION, for God loves a cheerful giver.
-2 Corinthians 9:6-7

No mention of HOW MUCH to give, only HOW to give–generously and what you decided in your heart to give. Yet this has been quoted at that church I stopped going to as a reason to tithe 10%. The Pastor actually said that it meant that if you give you WILL be cheerful, so give and be cheerful.

Anyway, I hate the thought of stirring the pot on this blog again in 2010, as I’m sure that after 3 years you’re probably ready to let it die down. But, what you said and how you handled the comments (in the early years–that last one was a bit snappish, though understandably so–the hypocrisy of mentioning it in my own somewhat snappy comment is not lost on me, I promise) is an example to us all. And, you guided us all biblically–you ONLY quoted what was in the bible, AND you told us to search it out ourselves. We should all be doing that.

This is important work you’ve started. You’re going to face naysayers a lot. But, none of these naysayers have quoted any of the references in context to the meaning. You have.

Now, onto your other posts…

]]> By: Josh Sowin http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20956 Josh Sowin Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:46:42 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20956 Great galations, what a thread! And in my experience, the best internet trolls are Christian leaders. They are AWESOME at it! Great galations, what a thread!

And in my experience, the best internet trolls are Christian leaders. They are AWESOME at it!

]]> By: Travis http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20955 Travis Wed, 20 Jan 2010 01:04:00 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20955 Five minutes of fame? Dude (or Dudette)! It's more like <strong>three years <em>...of infamy!</em></strong> Just when I think the post has finally run its course, a new Pharisee comes along and stirs up the pot (and Google's indexes) all over again. BTW, I asked my pastor to meet with me to talk about it multiple times over the course of seven months before writing this post. (I let him know when I published it, and he suddenly found time in his schedule to meet with me, less than a week after that.) BTW, the reasons I listed for going are the only reasons that have any New Testament basis. Go ahead and show me some other Biblical purpose for the <em>ekklesia</em>. BTW, "the head of that house" is Jesus. BTW, Jesus went to a place with hostile leaders who were deceiving and enslaving the people under them. Lots of Christians do it, too. It's called "being a missionary." BTW, in his letter to the Corinthians, Paul's "sowing" is providing financial relief to suffering, poverty-stricken believers in another part of the world. It bears absolutely no resemblance to upgrading sound systems and improving parking lots for our own group's meeting house. It bears <em>all sorts</em> of resemblance to what I described in my post as the purpose of the tithes, and what Christians ought to be doing with their money now that we're no longer under the obligation to tithe. Huh. Imagine that! BTW, you "can't believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis," yet you went ahead and did it yourself. Nice. Also, "so many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it"? Good job <em>not</em> being a hypocrite there (since that's kinda the exact thing you've done with both of your comments here). ;) BTW, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Galatians 3:10</a>. <strong>FUN FACT:</strong> Some of the worst internet trolls hold leadership positions in their churches. G'night! Five minutes of fame? Dude (or Dudette)! It’s more like three years …of infamy! Just when I think the post has finally run its course, a new Pharisee comes along and stirs up the pot (and Google’s indexes) all over again.

BTW, I asked my pastor to meet with me to talk about it multiple times over the course of seven months before writing this post. (I let him know when I published it, and he suddenly found time in his schedule to meet with me, less than a week after that.)

BTW, the reasons I listed for going are the only reasons that have any New Testament basis. Go ahead and show me some other Biblical purpose for the ekklesia.

BTW, “the head of that house” is Jesus.

BTW, Jesus went to a place with hostile leaders who were deceiving and enslaving the people under them. Lots of Christians do it, too. It’s called “being a missionary.”

BTW, in his letter to the Corinthians, Paul’s “sowing” is providing financial relief to suffering, poverty-stricken believers in another part of the world. It bears absolutely no resemblance to upgrading sound systems and improving parking lots for our own group’s meeting house. It bears all sorts of resemblance to what I described in my post as the purpose of the tithes, and what Christians ought to be doing with their money now that we’re no longer under the obligation to tithe. Huh. Imagine that!

BTW, you “can’t believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis,” yet you went ahead and did it yourself. Nice. Also, “so many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it”? Good job not being a hypocrite there (since that’s kinda the exact thing you’ve done with both of your comments here). ;)

BTW, Galatians 3:10.

FUN FACT: Some of the worst internet trolls hold leadership positions in their churches.

G’night!

]]> By: TITHER http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20954 TITHER Wed, 20 Jan 2010 01:01:59 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20954 GALATIONS 3:28 GALATIONS 3:28

]]> By: tither http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20953 tither Wed, 20 Jan 2010 00:56:34 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20953 I usually don't respond to discussions of this such and if it weren't for some research, I'd never even come across this site. However, I must say that I think this is one of the reasons that so many non believers don't bother coming to church or getting saved. So many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it. If I were still of the world and listening to Christians claiming most preachers to be liars while poking out their chests trying to prove to everyone how much they know or simply their interpetation of the word(because thats all any of this is), I'd say "why bother" too. I usually don’t respond to discussions of this such and if it weren’t for some research, I’d never even come across this site. However, I must say that I think this is one of the reasons that so many non believers don’t bother coming to church or getting saved. So many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it. If I were still of the world and listening to Christians claiming most preachers to be liars while poking out their chests trying to prove to everyone how much they know or simply their interpetation of the word(because thats all any of this is), I’d say “why bother” too.

]]> By: TITHER http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20952 TITHER Wed, 20 Jan 2010 00:06:22 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20952 I can't believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis. But Im glad he was able to get his five minutes of fame. I found it interesting that he would never answer the questions about financial difficulties. Read 2 Corinthians 9:6-8. The point is Travis, everybody is entitled to believe whatever they believe. Just like Beth said, why be apart of a church if you don't agree with leadership. You can still care about the other members while attending a church that you are in agreement with. Because the fact of the matter is, you aren't doing that house any favors by creating conflict and telling others they shouldn't listen to what the head of that house is teaching. And you told Beth that she seems to be looking 4 a social club, but look at the reasons you listed for going. I can't imagine why someone would choose to attend a church they felt was lying to them, and try to be apart of those different ministries if not just to socialize. And it makes me curious why you chose to blog about this online instead of asking your Pastor to show you what he's teaching in the word. Is it because you're afraid he may be able to show it to you, and then you would have to actually pay your tithes. Well I haven't found in the word where it says its mandatory to pay your tithes. But in 2 Corinthians 9:6-8, it does say that if you sow sparingly, you will reap sparingly. And that the Lord loves a cheerful giver. So if its not for you, than just don't do it. That's between you, God, and your finances. I can’t believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis. But Im glad he was able to get his five minutes of fame. I found it interesting that he would never answer the questions about financial difficulties. Read 2 Corinthians 9:6-8. The point is Travis, everybody is entitled to believe whatever they believe. Just like Beth said, why be apart of a church if you don’t agree with leadership. You can still care about the other members while attending a church that you are in agreement with. Because the fact of the matter is, you aren’t doing that house any favors by creating conflict and telling others they shouldn’t listen to what the head of that house is teaching.
And you told Beth that she seems to be looking 4 a social club, but look at the reasons you listed for going. I can’t imagine why someone would choose to attend a church they felt was lying to them, and try to be apart of those different ministries if not just to socialize.
And it makes me curious why you chose to blog about this online instead of asking your Pastor to show you what he’s teaching in the word. Is it because you’re afraid he may be able to show it to you, and then you would have to actually pay your tithes. Well I haven’t found in the word where it says its mandatory to pay your tithes. But in 2 Corinthians 9:6-8, it does say that if you sow sparingly, you will reap sparingly. And that the Lord loves a cheerful giver. So if its not for you, than just don’t do it. That’s between you, God, and your finances.

]]> By: Erica http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20951 Erica Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:48:53 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20951 I know it is now 2010, but this has been on my heart to research for a little while. I asked my mom , who is now a pastor, if the Bible says to give 10%, and she said, it does. It made me really furious..lol, but she is my mom , and I have to respect her. I kindly told her, the Bible doesn't say that, and I believe people have really misused that scripture to "rob" God's people so to speak..I could go on and on, but this just confirms what I already believe. People are struggling yet still paying tithes, but God's word clearly says, in all thy getting, get understanding. We need to KNOW God's word for ourselves. I know it is now 2010, but this has been on my heart to research for a little while. I asked my mom , who is now a pastor, if the Bible says to give 10%, and she said, it does. It made me really furious..lol, but she is my mom , and I have to respect her. I kindly told her, the Bible doesn’t say that, and I believe people have really misused that scripture to “rob” God’s people so to speak..I could go on and on, but this just confirms what I already believe. People are struggling yet still paying tithes, but God’s word clearly says, in all thy getting, get understanding. We need to KNOW God’s word for ourselves.

]]> By: Jen http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20946 Jen Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:32:58 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20946 It isn't that I haven't read my Bible, it is just that people interpret it many different ways & both sides have compelling arguments. I will say that over the past few weeks I have changed some things. I have started giving directly to people in need, whom God lays on my heart.... The joy that I have from giving in this way cannot compare to dropping a check in a bucket at church. However, I do feel like I need to continue to support my church but not with a set amount and it will start taking a back seat to the ground level giving that directly helps people in need. I have seen my blessings increase and I truly LOVE God using me to help people like this. I have a peace about this and I truly feel that God is happy with this path. It isn’t that I haven’t read my Bible, it is just that people interpret it many different ways & both sides have compelling arguments. I will say that over the past few weeks I have changed some things. I have started giving directly to people in need, whom God lays on my heart…. The joy that I have from giving in this way cannot compare to dropping a check in a bucket at church. However, I do feel like I need to continue to support my church but not with a set amount and it will start taking a back seat to the ground level giving that directly helps people in need. I have seen my blessings increase and I truly LOVE God using me to help people like this. I have a peace about this and I truly feel that God is happy with this path.

]]> By: Anonymous http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20945 Anonymous Sat, 12 Dec 2009 05:12:59 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20945 Jen, Jeremiah's prophecy has now been fulfilled for God has written his laws on our hearts not on tablets of stone. Outward rituals and law-keeping was only a type and shadow of the better Covenant of Grace through faith in the payment Jesus made. Once that is accepted with have free access to forgiveness, eternal life and are free to be healed as in He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquity and by His stripes we are healed. Does it say by paying your tithes you are healed? Heck NO! Go and learn what paid in full truly means. It covers 100 percent of any balance we were owing. You do not have to tithe for favor--Jen you got all the favor you needed freely at the Cross. Just ask God in Jesus name and he will do it. That is if you are abiding in Him. I think you truly are! Jen, Jeremiah’s prophecy has now been fulfilled for God has written his laws on our hearts not on tablets of stone. Outward rituals and law-keeping was only a type and shadow of the better Covenant of Grace through faith in the payment Jesus made. Once that is accepted with have free access to forgiveness, eternal life and are free to be healed as in He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquity and by His stripes we are healed. Does it say by paying your tithes you are healed? Heck NO! Go and learn what paid in full truly means. It covers 100 percent of any balance we were owing. You do not have to tithe for favor–Jen you got all the favor you needed freely at the Cross. Just ask God in Jesus name and he will do it. That is if you are abiding in Him. I think you truly are!

]]> By: Anonymous http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20944 Anonymous Sat, 12 Dec 2009 05:04:14 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20944 Jen that is good that you respect your Pastor but he is only a man and therefore capable of error. He is not infallible, perfect nor does your Pastor walk on water. What it tells me when I hear people struggling over this issue is that they have not read their Bible in detail esp. the New Testament. When were you a Jew living under the Old Covenant laws in the first place. Simple logic will tell you this Malachi curse does not apply to you or any Gentile. The Apostle Paul never mentioned the word tithe. Did you know he preached grace and not law. The law only pointed to our transgressions of the law to make us see our need for a Savior. If you are speeding down the highway you may feel fine until you see the sign that gives you the speed limit then you become aware that you were in violation of the law by speeding. Paul said the law serves only to bring us to Christ and to receive the Grace and payment he made. Hebrews 8:6 said Jesus is a better Covenant than the Old System of rituals and law keeping. Answer this, do you keep Jewish feast, observances and ritual currently? No you don't because Christian (Gentiles meaning not Jews)do not recognize the Old because we are under the New Testament law of Grace. I will be praying for you to read your bible with understanding and not just follow the manipulation & teachings of your Pastor who needs money to keep the Mega Church going. Jen me, you, we are the Church. Where two are three are assembled there He (Jesus( is in the midst. That is His word! Often Gentiles had house Churches. Some places in the world have underground Churches like Communist Countries that are heavily monitored and persecuted have to hid out in homes secretly. A big bldg does not mean God is present. He did not need a big crowd. He only needed 120 at Pentecost in the upper room then they went on to be filled with His Spirit and changed the whole world! Jen that is good that you respect your Pastor but he is only a man and therefore capable of error. He is not infallible, perfect nor does your Pastor walk on water. What it tells me when I hear people struggling over this issue is that they have not read their Bible in detail esp. the New Testament. When were you a Jew living under the Old Covenant laws in the first place. Simple logic will tell you this Malachi curse does not apply to you or any Gentile. The Apostle Paul never mentioned the word tithe. Did you know he preached grace and not law. The law only pointed to our transgressions of the law to make us see our need for a Savior. If you are speeding down the highway you may feel fine until you see the sign that gives you the speed limit then you become aware that you were in violation of the law by speeding. Paul said the law serves only to bring us to Christ and to receive the Grace and payment he made. Hebrews 8:6 said Jesus is a better Covenant than the Old System of rituals and law keeping. Answer this, do you keep Jewish feast, observances and ritual currently? No you don’t because Christian (Gentiles meaning not Jews)do not recognize the Old because we are under the New Testament law of Grace. I will be praying for you to read your bible with understanding and not just follow the manipulation & teachings of your Pastor who needs money to keep the Mega Church going. Jen me, you, we are the Church. Where two are three are assembled there He (Jesus( is in the midst.
That is His word! Often Gentiles had house Churches. Some places in the world have underground Churches like Communist Countries that are heavily monitored and persecuted have to hid out in homes secretly. A big bldg does not mean God is present. He did not need a big crowd. He only needed 120 at Pentecost in the upper room then they went on to be filled with His Spirit and changed the whole world!

]]> By: SJ http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20943 SJ Sat, 12 Dec 2009 04:50:07 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20943 Excuse me I meant no one could keep the whole law which is why Jesus had to come and save us from the curse because of breaking the law. All laws had to be kept not just the tithe law. They have been kept for us by Jesus who stood in our place as our substitute. Give as you are lead by Gods Spirit. I do and I am really blessed. You overlooked Galatians 3:13 "Christ has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law" It is right there in front of you unless you have a veil over your eyes that is plain and clear! Excuse me I meant no one could keep the whole law which is why Jesus had to come and save us from the curse because of breaking the law.
All laws had to be kept not just the tithe law. They have been kept for us by Jesus who stood in our place as our substitute.
Give as you are lead by Gods Spirit. I do and I am really blessed.
You overlooked Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law” It is right there in front of you unless you have a veil over your eyes that is plain and clear!

]]> By: SJ http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20942 SJ Sat, 12 Dec 2009 04:46:15 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20942 Jen you don't have to pray about what is right in front of you in the word just pick it up and read the New Testament promises because of the cross. Did you know in Acts 15:10 Peter said not to trouble the Gentiles with what he called a yoke of bondage (laws like circumcision and other laws) that neither he or his ancestors could carry. Ever read Romans 8:32 "God did not spare His only Son but FREELY Gave him up for us all therefore He with HIM will surely give us all things So who can bring a charge against Gods elect?" You need to read your New Testament and find out what was paid for us on the Cross. Jews could keep the law there were six hundred and thirteen laws that expanded out of the ten that had to be kept under the Old Covenant day and night around the clock. Now the laws are written not on tables of stones but as Jeremiah prophesized it would be written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Stop following the traditions of man and follow the instructions in the word. You would then know that there is not one commandment for Gentiles to tithe under the dispensation of Grace after the payment Jesus made on the Cross. Gentiles were not included in the Old Covenant only Jews were! We have been adopted & grafted into a Covenant with God because of the Cross Paid in full guarantees Salvation and favor free of charge! Jen you don’t have to pray about what is right in front of you in the word just pick it up and read the New Testament promises because of the cross. Did you know in Acts 15:10 Peter said not to trouble the Gentiles with what he called a yoke of bondage (laws like circumcision and other laws) that neither he or his ancestors could carry. Ever read Romans 8:32 “God did not spare His only Son but FREELY Gave him up for us all therefore He with HIM will surely give us all things
So who can bring a charge against Gods elect?”
You need to read your New Testament and find out what was paid for us on the Cross. Jews could keep the law there were six hundred and thirteen laws that expanded out of the ten that had to be kept under the Old Covenant day and night around the clock. Now the laws are written not on tables of stones but as Jeremiah prophesized it would be written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Stop following the traditions of man and follow the instructions in the word. You would then know that there is not one commandment for Gentiles to tithe under the dispensation of Grace after the payment Jesus made on the Cross. Gentiles were not included in the Old Covenant only Jews were! We have been adopted & grafted into a Covenant with God because of the Cross Paid in full guarantees Salvation and favor free of charge!

]]> By: Don http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20941 Don Sat, 12 Dec 2009 04:35:17 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20941 CHRIST HAS REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW CANCELS OUT ANY CURSE FROM NOT KEEPING THE LAW. GOD ACCEPTS THE PAYMENT JESUS PAID IN FULL WHICH CANCELS ANY DEBT OR PAYMENT YOU ARE OWING. IT IS CALLED FAVOR (UNEARNED AND NOT DESERVED) BOAST IN THAT AND NOT YOUR TITHE RECORDS! ALSO KEEP THE SABBATH WHILE YOU ARE BOASTING ON KEEPING THE TITHE LAW BUT OF COURSE YOU WON'T GIVE UP YOUR RECREATION AND HOBBIES FROM FRIDAY NIGHT TILL SATURDAY NIGHT WILL YOU?? HYPOCRITES! CHRIST HAS REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW CANCELS OUT ANY CURSE FROM NOT KEEPING THE LAW. GOD ACCEPTS THE PAYMENT JESUS PAID IN FULL WHICH CANCELS ANY DEBT OR PAYMENT YOU ARE OWING. IT IS CALLED FAVOR
(UNEARNED AND NOT DESERVED) BOAST IN THAT AND NOT YOUR TITHE RECORDS!
ALSO KEEP THE SABBATH WHILE YOU ARE BOASTING ON KEEPING THE TITHE LAW BUT OF COURSE YOU WON’T GIVE UP YOUR RECREATION AND HOBBIES FROM FRIDAY NIGHT TILL SATURDAY NIGHT WILL YOU?? HYPOCRITES!

]]> By: Anonymous http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20940 Anonymous Sat, 12 Dec 2009 04:31:24 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20940 For anyone seeking deprogramming from the tithe or be cursed lie go to Galatians 3:13 in the New Testament not Malachi which is the Old Covenant instruction to the Jews only. Repeat Galatians 3:13 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us on the Cross" If you do not began to see veil fall from your eyes then you have it real---bad! For anyone seeking deprogramming from the tithe or be cursed lie
go to Galatians 3:13 in the New Testament not Malachi which is the Old Covenant instruction to the Jews only.
Repeat Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us on the Cross” If you do not began to see veil fall from your eyes then you have it real—bad!

]]> By: Jen http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20936 Jen Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:31:21 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20936 At my church (which is considered a mega-church) the entire month of January is dedicated to teaching about tithing. I have been taught by a pastor that I highly respect that not tithing removes God's protection and anything from financial devastation to illnesses can occur. I have overdrawn my bank account numerous times in the past in order to make absolutely sure that I tithe. I in no way want to ever not give back to God, or not show my gratitude or praise to Him for all the blessings He has given me. On the other hand, tithing, at times feels (as an earlier post stated) "a monthly bill" and the guilt, fear, and panic over the issue makes it hard for me to believe it is God calling me to do it. Everything else seems to have such a clear answer. I do not own anything, everything I have already belongs to Him and He has the power to take it all away or add to it. I am not attached to money, and whatever I am given in my life that is what I was meant to have. I will be fine if I never live in a mansion, own a Louis Vuitton or drive a BMW....I don't feel comfortable with stuff like that anyway because there are people who are starving and have no clothing, etc. I just find it so hard to believe that my loving God, my Father would insist that I give Him a certain amount of money every month (like a landlord) or He will not love me or protect me and my family any longer and let us be plagued with illnesses and fall into financial devastation. I am not questioning it out of greed, I am questioning it because I do not have a clear answer from the Holy Spirit about it..a peace in my heart..at least not in the form that it has been presented. I know that if God presented a situation to me where someone was in need and He wanted me to help, I would know right away what He was asking of me and I wouldn't hesitate. I will be praying hard about this and asking God to make His desire clear because in the end that is all that matters to me. From zero to 100 whatever he wants me to turn over and to whomever He wants me to turn it over to I will and if I KNOW it is Him, I can't help but do it cheerfully. At my church (which is considered a mega-church) the entire month of January is dedicated to teaching about tithing. I have been taught by a pastor that I highly respect that not tithing removes God’s protection and anything from financial devastation to illnesses can occur. I have overdrawn my bank account numerous times in the past in order to make absolutely sure that I tithe. I in no way want to ever not give back to God, or not show my gratitude or praise to Him for all the blessings He has given me.

On the other hand, tithing, at times feels (as an earlier post stated) “a monthly bill” and the guilt, fear, and panic over the issue makes it hard for me to believe it is God calling me to do it. Everything else seems to have such a clear answer.

I do not own anything, everything I have already belongs to Him and He has the power to take it all away or add to it. I am not attached to money, and whatever I am given in my life that is what I was meant to have. I will be fine if I never live in a mansion, own a Louis Vuitton or drive a BMW….I don’t feel comfortable with stuff like that anyway because there are people who are starving and have no clothing, etc.

I just find it so hard to believe that my loving God, my Father would insist that I give Him a certain amount of money every month (like a landlord) or He will not love me or protect me and my family any longer and let us be plagued with illnesses and fall into financial devastation. I am not questioning it out of greed, I am questioning it because I do not have a clear answer from the Holy Spirit about it..a peace in my heart..at least not in the form that it has been presented. I know that if God presented a situation to me where someone was in need and He wanted me to help, I would know right away what He was asking of me and I wouldn’t hesitate.

I will be praying hard about this and asking God to make His desire clear because in the end that is all that matters to me. From zero to 100 whatever he wants me to turn over and to whomever He wants me to turn it over to I will and if I KNOW it is Him, I can’t help but do it cheerfully.

]]> By: Anna http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20935 Anna Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:29:21 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20935 Keep the Sabbath too if you are keeping the tithe law otherwise you are being contradictory and selecting only what suits you! Keep the Sabbath too if you are keeping the tithe law otherwise you are being contradictory and selecting only what suits you!

]]> By: SJ http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20934 SJ Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:26:34 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20934 Jesus gave many free promises that God would meet our daily needs if we ask in His name, He gave us His word that it would be done on the condition that we are abiding in Him. He also proclaimed that He came to heal the sick and set the captives free and this was free of charge! By His stripes we are Healed either we are healed here on earth or for eternity in Heaven. Jesus never charged a dime for an answer to prayer and I challenge anyone to find the Scripture for where Jesus charged for a healing or miracle. Salvation is free and so are answers to prayers. I mind up my mind to accept the payment Jesus made by faith and have been more blessed more than when I was keeping an Old Covenant law tithe law out of fear of a curse which applied to a Jewish nation still under the law of Moses. I freely give as I have freely received but not to brag about my tithing record and steal away the attention from the Cross and payment Jesus made! Jesus gave many free promises that God would meet our daily needs if we ask in His name, He gave us His word that it would be done on the condition that we are abiding in Him. He also proclaimed that He came to heal the sick and set the captives free and this was free of charge! By His stripes we are Healed either we are healed here on earth or for eternity in Heaven. Jesus never charged a dime for an answer to prayer and I challenge anyone to find the Scripture for where Jesus charged for a healing or miracle. Salvation is free and so are answers to prayers. I mind up my mind to accept the payment Jesus made by faith and have been more blessed more than when I was keeping an Old Covenant law tithe law out of fear of a curse which applied to a Jewish nation still under the law of Moses. I freely give as I have freely received but not to brag about my tithing record and steal away the attention from the Cross and payment Jesus made!

]]> By: Damon http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20933 Damon Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:16:41 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20933 It should dawn on the any thinking Christian that if your Pastor/Church Leader is not also promoting that you keep the Sabbath Day which is no work or activity on Friday evening till Saturday at sundown then why are they promoting one Old Covenant law, when all had to be kept to be in right standing with God? In Matthew 23:23 Jesus did not even compliment the Pharisees for tithing and they were still under the Old Covenant law because Jesus had not yet died to fulfill the law for the people He came to redeem from the Curse of the law. Tithing is a manipulation and the fact that the Tithe Mandaters are not teaching to keep any other Old Covenant law, Jewish feast or Jewish Ceremony as in circumcision, dietary laws is proof of it. If anyone cannot see this they are blind leading the blind! Give as you purpose in your own heart, not out of duty or grudgingly for God loves a cheerful giver (not tithe payer). Give Jesus the credit for what he paid in full for you not your works so that you will stop boasting in your own payments! It should dawn on the any thinking Christian that if your Pastor/Church Leader is not also promoting that you keep the Sabbath Day which is no work or activity on Friday evening till Saturday at sundown then why are they promoting one Old Covenant law, when all had to be kept to be in right standing with God? In Matthew 23:23 Jesus did not even compliment the Pharisees for tithing and they were still under the Old Covenant law because Jesus had not yet died to fulfill the law for the people He came to redeem from the Curse of the law. Tithing is a manipulation and the fact that the Tithe Mandaters are not teaching to keep any other Old Covenant law, Jewish feast or Jewish Ceremony as in circumcision, dietary laws is proof of it. If anyone cannot see this they are blind leading the blind! Give as you purpose in your own heart, not out of duty or grudgingly for God loves a cheerful giver (not tithe payer). Give Jesus the credit for what he paid in full for you not your works so that you will stop boasting in your own payments!

]]> By: Larry Cornell http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20910 Larry Cornell Mon, 05 Oct 2009 04:01:51 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20910 It is encouraging to see more and more people waking up to this issue and taking personal responsibility over where their giving goes and how it gets there. The only thing a minister should have any expectation for is a reasonable living if he is serving a congregation, but all of it has to come from freewill offerings according to the Bible. Voluntary tithing is acceptable but distroting the Bible to insist upon tithing is self-centered at best. We are called to the ministry to ease burdens not burden people further. Paul said those who preach the gospel can make their living from the gospel. The church is not a storehouse unless it faithfully meets the needs of the poor and ministers who love their congregations should be compelled by the law of love to live within the same income bracket as the majority of their congregation. That last is my opinion but I think the Bible and the stated law of love bears it out. Paul at times had nothing but the clothes on his back and he never turned to tithing as a commandment. That should both inform us and put fear in the hearts of those who would enslave the weak with dogmatic calls to OT law. Do not defraud your brother in these matters for the Lord is the avenger of all such. God bless. It is encouraging to see more and more people waking up to this issue and taking personal responsibility over where their giving goes and how it gets there. The only thing a minister should have any expectation for is a reasonable living if he is serving a congregation, but all of it has to come from freewill offerings according to the Bible. Voluntary tithing is acceptable but distroting the Bible to insist upon tithing is self-centered at best. We are called to the ministry to ease burdens not burden people further. Paul said those who preach the gospel can make their living from the gospel. The church is not a storehouse unless it faithfully meets the needs of the poor and ministers who love their congregations should be compelled by the law of love to live within the same income bracket as the majority of their congregation. That last is my opinion but I think the Bible and the stated law of love bears it out. Paul at times had nothing but the clothes on his back and he never turned to tithing as a commandment. That should both inform us and put fear in the hearts of those who would enslave the weak with dogmatic calls to OT law. Do not defraud your brother in these matters for the Lord is the avenger of all such.

God bless.

]]> By: sonia http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20896 sonia Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:55:43 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20896 I came across this site and it has greatly showed me different insites on tithing. I believe in my heart that know man should be paid for a gift the our God gave to the so freely. God has given to us the greatest gift of all his Son Jesus Christ. God has given the gift to many to pastor to others, and guide us in the direction in which our Heavenly Father wants us to go. I have a big problem with pastors taking a percentage of the chuches income for services rendered that was so freely given by God. When tithing it should be based upon giving according to the word of God. That is for helping thoes that are in need. I gave because I was taught to give this way, but now my vision is so clearly different. I see it so much in todays churches of misuse of funds, I pray that our Father touches every pastors heart that know the truth of tithing to teach the TRUTH. God is and awesome God and he is so worthy to be praised. For them that are lost he will truly guide you in the right direction. Thanks, Sonia I came across this site and it has greatly showed me different insites on tithing. I believe in my heart that know man should be paid for a gift the our God gave to the so freely. God has given to us the greatest gift of all his Son Jesus Christ. God has given the gift to many to pastor to others, and guide us in the direction in which our Heavenly Father wants us to go. I have a big problem with pastors taking a percentage of the chuches income for services rendered that was so freely given by God. When tithing it should be based upon giving according to the word of God. That is for helping thoes that are in need. I gave because I was taught to give this way, but now my vision is so clearly different. I see it so much in todays churches of misuse of funds, I pray that our Father touches every pastors heart that know the truth of tithing to teach the TRUTH. God is and awesome God and he is so worthy to be praised. For them that are lost he will truly guide you in the right direction.

Thanks,

Sonia

]]> By: okorie c.okorie http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20888 okorie c.okorie Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:23:28 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20888 About publishing a book titled TITHING AND ITS CONTROVERSIES, YOUR an encouragement. should you want an update on this you can contact be by mail. Thanks, Okorie About publishing a book titled TITHING AND ITS CONTROVERSIES, YOUR an encouragement. should you want an update on this you can contact be by mail.

Thanks,

Okorie

]]> By: Bill http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20882 Bill Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:15:59 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20882 Stumbled across this blog post while reading about tithing. Travis, you have correctly divided God's word. Thank you for the presenting the truth in love. Ribu John and others who believe tithing is scriptural: I've read your comments and I'm unconvinced by your position. As pointed out in this thread many times, there is no requirement for New Testament believers to give 10% of their gross income to their local church. Travis has proven to you that no such passage in scripture exists. Don't read into scripture what isn't there. If you you want to continue giving 10% of your gross income then that is your prerogative, but would you please call it something else? Perhaps membership dues or just an offering? After all, it is going to pay salaries, mortgages, etc. that were *never* the intent of the OT tithe. Call it what it is. Oh, and Ribu what you wrote to Patty "if you can't do it cheerfully, then stop tithing" is contradictory to the principle of the tithe. The tithe of the OT is compulsory. It didn't matter whether you wanted to do it. You were commanded to do it. It was the law. It would be like me advising (poorly) someone to stop paying their income tax if their heart wasn't in it. Shouldn't a tither like yourself counsel Patty to give regardless of how she feels about it? After all, if tithing is being obedient to scripture then not tithing would logically be disobedient to scripture. Why would you advise someone to disobey what (you believe) God commands? For the record, I give an offering to my local church to pay for the mission of the local church and I do so cheerfully. It is an SGM church so they naturally teach on tithing and expect members to tithe. I choose to give and offering (not tithe) because their pulpit teaching (except on the tithe:-) is a blessing to our family and I believe we all benefit from the fact that the teacher can give studying scripture his undivided interest (well, okay our pastors do have other pastoral duties to attend to...). Having said that, I do think that our local church is a far cry from the simple church model of the early church and I do believe they like so many countless other churches have allowed the traditions of men and the culture to define what the gathering on the Lord's day looks like. I often ponder how the funds to pay a church mortgage and a secretary assigned to every pastor might be better used to advance the kingdom. I likely will pursue home church at some point for the simplicity of it and so that I can better direct where God's money is spent. Until that time I will give an offering to support my local church, but tithe? Never. Stumbled across this blog post while reading about tithing.

Travis, you have correctly divided God’s word. Thank you for the presenting the truth in love.

Ribu John and others who believe tithing is scriptural: I’ve read your comments and I’m unconvinced by your position.

As pointed out in this thread many times, there is no requirement for New Testament believers to give 10% of their gross income to their local church. Travis has proven to you that no such passage in scripture exists. Don’t read into scripture what isn’t there.

If you you want to continue giving 10% of your gross income then that is your prerogative, but would you please call it something else? Perhaps membership dues or just an offering? After all, it is going to pay salaries, mortgages, etc. that were *never* the intent of the OT tithe. Call it what it is.

Oh, and Ribu what you wrote to Patty “if you can’t do it cheerfully, then stop tithing” is contradictory to the principle of the tithe. The tithe of the OT is compulsory. It didn’t matter whether you wanted to do it. You were commanded to do it. It was the law. It would be like me advising (poorly) someone to stop paying their income tax if their heart wasn’t in it. Shouldn’t a tither like yourself counsel Patty to give regardless of how she feels about it? After all, if tithing is being obedient to scripture then not tithing would logically be disobedient to scripture. Why would you advise someone to disobey what (you believe) God commands?

For the record, I give an offering to my local church to pay for the mission of the local church and I do so cheerfully. It is an SGM church so they naturally teach on tithing and expect members to tithe. I choose to give and offering (not tithe) because their pulpit teaching (except on the tithe:-) is a blessing to our family and I believe we all benefit from the fact that the teacher can give studying scripture his undivided interest (well, okay our pastors do have other pastoral duties to attend to…).

Having said that, I do think that our local church is a far cry from the simple church model of the early church and I do believe they like so many countless other churches have allowed the traditions of men and the culture to define what the gathering on the Lord’s day looks like. I often ponder how the funds to pay a church mortgage and a secretary assigned to every pastor might be better used to advance the kingdom. I likely will pursue home church at some point for the simplicity of it and so that I can better direct where God’s money is spent. Until that time I will give an offering to support my local church, but tithe? Never.

]]> By: Ribu John http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20881 Ribu John Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:08:30 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20881 No new big developments on this thread. But regardless, let me re-enter this discussion by pointing out that this is a good thread. Its open and honest. I've seen a few tithing threads on blogs and boards, but this one is the most interesting. I'd expect the most interesting thread on tithing to be by some big preacher or on Christianity Today or something... but this one is really good. Patty- if you can't do it cheerfully, then stop tithing. I advocate tithing, but you are right in that it is worthless if not done cheerfully. God doesn't want your money without your heart, otherwise its just another monthly bill. -Ribu No new big developments on this thread. But regardless, let me re-enter this discussion by pointing out that this is a good thread. Its open and honest. I’ve seen a few tithing threads on blogs and boards, but this one is the most interesting. I’d expect the most interesting thread on tithing to be by some big preacher or on Christianity Today or something… but this one is really good.

Patty- if you can’t do it cheerfully, then stop tithing. I advocate tithing, but you are right in that it is worthless if not done cheerfully. God doesn’t want your money without your heart, otherwise its just another monthly bill.

-Ribu

]]> By: Travis http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20860 Travis Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:04:19 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20860 Patty, you really don't want me (or anyone else here) to "help." We can put forward our arguments pro and con, but if you do anything because you're convinced by one or more of our arguments, then that fear and guilt will remain. You need to follow Jesus' voice -- not mine, not another blogger's, not your pastor's. Listen for your Shepherd's voice--hear what He says, and follow Him--and you won't have to worry about the bleatings of the other sheep. Patty, you really don’t want me (or anyone else here) to “help.” We can put forward our arguments pro and con, but if you do anything because you’re convinced by one or more of our arguments, then that fear and guilt will remain. You need to follow Jesus’ voice — not mine, not another blogger’s, not your pastor’s.

Listen for your Shepherd’s voice–hear what He says, and follow Him–and you won’t have to worry about the bleatings of the other sheep.

]]> By: Patty http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20859 Patty Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:56:06 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20859 My husband and I have been tithing 10% of our gross income for almost 20 years. We are a one income family (I stay home to home school our kids). We do without cell phones, cable, restaurants, etc., but rarely does a month go by that I am not stressing out about our budget. I have read both sides of the tithing argument. I want so badly to agree with your view, but I almost feel tormented about what to do. If we continue to tithe the way we have, I feel I'm not pleasing God anyway because it is not being done cheerfully, but more because I thought it was commanded. On the other hand, if I don't tithe, I feel enormous guilt in the pit of my stomach. Please help! My husband and I have been tithing 10% of our gross income for almost 20 years. We are a one income family (I stay home to home school our kids). We do without cell phones, cable, restaurants, etc., but rarely does a month go by that I am not stressing out about our budget. I have read both sides of the tithing argument. I want so badly to agree with your view, but I almost feel tormented about what to do. If we continue to tithe the way we have, I feel I’m not pleasing God anyway because it is not being done cheerfully, but more because I thought it was commanded. On the other hand, if I don’t tithe, I feel enormous guilt in the pit of my stomach. Please help!

]]> By: MD. http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20857 MD. Mon, 04 May 2009 16:03:49 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20857 CORRECTION FULL NOT FOOL (S0RRY ABOUT THAT) I did not understand the FULL entity of tithing. I knew that it was mentioned in the old testament on several occassions. The realization that I came to was that these people did not have jobs like we presently have today, they believed God and made certain sacrifices and vows to God to be blessed. According to Phillipians 4:16, God said he will supply my every need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So I firmly take God at his word and call it back to his rememberance. Now don’t get me wrong if my bother or sister is in need and I am in a situation to help them I will. I believe that God makes provisions for his children as long as they are living their lives to please him and not man. May God Bless. CORRECTION FULL NOT FOOL (S0RRY ABOUT THAT)
I did not understand the FULL entity of tithing. I knew that it was mentioned in the old testament on several occassions. The realization that I came to was that these people did not have jobs like we presently have today, they believed God and made certain sacrifices and vows to God to be blessed. According to Phillipians 4:16, God said he will supply my every need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So I firmly take God at his word and call it back to his rememberance. Now don’t get me wrong if my bother or sister is in need and I am in a situation to help them I will. I believe that God makes provisions for his children as long as they are living their lives to please him and not man. May God Bless.

]]> By: MS. D http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20856 MS. D Mon, 04 May 2009 15:56:50 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20856 I did not understand the fool entity of tithing. I knew that it was mentioned in the old testament on several occassions. The realization that I came to was that these people did not have jobs like we presently have today, they believed God and made certain sacrifices and vows to God to be blessed. According to Phillipians 4:16, God said he will supply my every need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So I firmly take God at his word and call it back to his rememberance. Now don't get me wrong if my bother or sister is in need and I am in a situation to help them I will. I believe that God makes provisions for his children as long as they are living their lives to please him and not man. May God Bless. I did not understand the fool entity of tithing. I knew that it was mentioned in the old testament on several occassions. The realization that I came to was that these people did not have jobs like we presently have today, they believed God and made certain sacrifices and vows to God to be blessed. According to Phillipians 4:16, God said he will supply my every need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So I firmly take God at his word and call it back to his rememberance. Now don’t get me wrong if my bother or sister is in need and I am in a situation to help them I will. I believe that God makes provisions for his children as long as they are living their lives to please him and not man. May God Bless.

]]> By: Big D http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20847 Big D Mon, 30 Mar 2009 05:49:36 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20847 I totaly agree with tis Blog..travis..that is the name i gave to my son....go0d job my friend..I would just like to say what cleaned up the tithing issue with me...was what Jesus said when he hung is head on the cross...IT IS FINISHED...NO MORE ...special days of observance..no more animal sacrifices...and now we can no longer rob god..because when we become part of his family..whe then distribute HIS wealth not ours... I totaly agree with tis Blog..travis..that is the name i gave to my son….go0d job my friend..I would just like to say what cleaned up the tithing issue with me…was what Jesus said when he hung is head on the cross…IT IS FINISHED…NO MORE …special days of observance..no more animal sacrifices…and now we can no longer rob god..because when we become part of his family..whe then distribute HIS wealth not ours…

]]> By: rod http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20840 rod Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:18:33 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20840 great blog. first i would lie to say that tithing so you can build a high dollar church is way wrong. helping people out of love is awesome maybe im wrong but i wont pay someone with a degree in theolgy to preach to me. ive seen adds for preachers in papers for six figure salaries, must have a degree to apply with resume????? what is wrong with this picture? scripture tells me that where several are gathered together in jesus' name there he is also yet this high dollar preacher says im a sinner because im not in his church paying him tithes so he can pay for a new bmw. i give what i can when i can in ways that i feel the good lord has led me to give to. im satisfied i am tithing and will face judjement content that is how jesus intended me to give, out of love instead of coerced by scripture twisting greedy pastors. and by no means do i mean all pastors or churches are this way, but a lot are seen many of them. god bless great blog. first i would lie to say that tithing so you can build a high dollar church is way wrong. helping people out of love is awesome maybe im wrong but i wont pay someone with a degree in theolgy to preach to me. ive seen adds for preachers in papers for six figure salaries, must have a degree to apply with resume????? what is wrong with this picture? scripture tells me that where several are gathered together in jesus’ name there he is also yet this high dollar preacher says im a sinner because im not in his church paying him tithes so he can pay for a new bmw. i give what i can when i can in ways that i feel the good lord has led me to give to. im satisfied i am tithing and will face judjement content that is how jesus intended me to give, out of love instead of coerced by scripture twisting greedy pastors. and by no means do i mean all pastors or churches are this way, but a lot are seen many of them. god bless

]]> By: Thomas Paul http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20830 Thomas Paul Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:18:52 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20830 Hey Travis, thank you very much for the clear information about tithing. Starting about a year ago me and my wife starting having financial trouble as a lot of americans have had latelty. (We Unfortunately go to a church that beats money down your throat). We couldnt afford to tithe for about a year. We have a two year old and had make the choice between eating and tithing, we ate. After several months my pastor had someone else come and talk to me about not tithing, (apperantly he looks at who tithes). So after this conversation i went to my pastor to speak with him about it. He informed me he was just being a good spiritual father and he was correcting something i was doing wrong, like if your child is misbehaving. I fell for it and tithed with my next pay check,,,, BIG MISTAKE. We almost couldnt pay our rent, we had to barrow money... i knew this was wrong, i just didnt know how to fight it. thank you for speaking the truth.. Hey Travis, thank you very much for the clear information about tithing. Starting about a year ago me and my wife starting having financial trouble as a lot of americans have had latelty. (We Unfortunately go to a church that beats money down your throat). We couldnt afford to tithe for about a year. We have a two year old and had make the choice between eating and tithing, we ate.
After several months my pastor had someone else come and talk to me about not tithing, (apperantly he looks at who tithes). So after this conversation i went to my pastor to speak with him about it. He informed me he was just being a good spiritual father and he was correcting something i was doing wrong, like if your child is misbehaving. I fell for it and tithed with my next pay check,,,, BIG MISTAKE. We almost couldnt pay our rent, we had to barrow money… i knew this was wrong, i just didnt know how to fight it. thank you for speaking the truth..

]]> By: Cris http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20826 Cris Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:39:33 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20826 I see both sides. I think those that have been hurt due to pastors or leaders abusing the tithe really do look for a reason not to give. I am one of them. I also think the worker is worthy of his wages. Trust me, I have been on full time staff at church. I always felt underpaid (trust me I was). But I also think that before a pastor teaches that we must tithe 10 percent, he should hold at least a part time job and stop relying on the congregation's tithes to support him. They love to tell us that we need to believe God to provide, but why don't they believe God for their provision instead of relying on our paychecks? Um, yes, I have some hurts and it has affected my desire to tithe 10. Its not that giving 10 percent hurts financially. Its that giving 10 percent to people who can afford to travel the world while I am stuck in town working my a-- off kind of gets to me. And they need our checks to pay for their luxury vehicles instead of getting a decent used car and increasing offerings to missionaries who really are doing the work of the Lord with little means. Hmmm...pastors have flatscreen tvs and iPods and blackberrys. And they send pennies to our missionaries. No thanks. I'd rather give 10 percent directly to missionaries in Africa and the Philippines. Yep, this is not a debate. Sorry, I just had to rant. I see both sides. I think those that have been hurt due to pastors or leaders abusing the tithe really do look for a reason not to give. I am one of them. I also think the worker is worthy of his wages. Trust me, I have been on full time staff at church. I always felt underpaid (trust me I was). But I also think that before a pastor teaches that we must tithe 10 percent, he should hold at least a part time job and stop relying on the congregation’s tithes to support him. They love to tell us that we need to believe God to provide, but why don’t they believe God for their provision instead of relying on our paychecks?

Um, yes, I have some hurts and it has affected my desire to tithe 10. Its not that giving 10 percent hurts financially. Its that giving 10 percent to people who can afford to travel the world while I am stuck in town working my a– off kind of gets to me. And they need our checks to pay for their luxury vehicles instead of getting a decent used car and increasing offerings to missionaries who really are doing the work of the Lord with little means. Hmmm…pastors have flatscreen tvs and iPods and blackberrys. And they send pennies to our missionaries. No thanks. I’d rather give 10 percent directly to missionaries in Africa and the Philippines.

Yep, this is not a debate. Sorry, I just had to rant.

]]> By: Travis http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20823 Travis Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:31:41 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20823 Kevin, Thanks for joining in on the conversation! <em>(By the way, it's a conversation which was started here nearly 2 years ago. <a href="http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/09/moving-on.html" rel="nofollow">I left Chesapeake Community Church</a> a few months after penning this post.)</em> I'm going to address your main question to me, but please go back and make sure you read my entire post (specifically my conclusion). I already addressed some things you seem to think I didn't, which leads me to believe you didn't actually read the whole thing. Don't make me repeat myself, Mister! ;) So anyway.... How do I think "church should be done"? Well, I suppose the same way that family is "done." For instance, I'm the spiritual leader in my home. I don't expect my children to work and give me a portion of their money as compensation for my leadership and training! However, if I or one of their siblings were in <em>need</em> of something—something which they were able to provide—then I most certainly <em>would</em> expect my child to share what they had so that a member of their family didn't have to go without. To counter your accusation, I think tithing is just a lame excuse for pastors to be greedy with other people's resources, and lazy about heeding the Apostle Paul's <strong>clear</strong> teaching on the matter: <em>"Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. And when they came to him, he said to them: 'I coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. In all things I have shown you that <strong>we must help the weak by working hard in this way</strong>. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"</em> — Acts 20:17-18,33-35 When Paul says, "we," remember that he's speaking to all the elders of the Church (in Ephesus). In other words, the Apostle Paul taught that church elders <strong>must</strong> work hard, providing for their own necessities, in order to help the weak (rather than being a burden to them). Y'know, Pharaoh accused the Hebrew slaves of laziness when they cried out for release from the burden of heavy labor and unjust demands which he had placed on them. It's a pretty common thing for oppressors to do to the oppressed. Be careful not to follow after his example. Kevin,

Thanks for joining in on the conversation! (By the way, it’s a conversation which was started here nearly 2 years ago. I left Chesapeake Community Church a few months after penning this post.)

I’m going to address your main question to me, but please go back and make sure you read my entire post (specifically my conclusion). I already addressed some things you seem to think I didn’t, which leads me to believe you didn’t actually read the whole thing. Don’t make me repeat myself, Mister! ;)

So anyway…. How do I think “church should be done”? Well, I suppose the same way that family is “done.” For instance, I’m the spiritual leader in my home. I don’t expect my children to work and give me a portion of their money as compensation for my leadership and training! However, if I or one of their siblings were in need of something—something which they were able to provide—then I most certainly would expect my child to share what they had so that a member of their family didn’t have to go without.

To counter your accusation, I think tithing is just a lame excuse for pastors to be greedy with other people’s resources, and lazy about heeding the Apostle Paul’s clear teaching on the matter:

“Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. And when they came to him, he said to them: ‘I coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. In all things I have shown you that we must help the weak by working hard in this way. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” — Acts 20:17-18,33-35

When Paul says, “we,” remember that he’s speaking to all the elders of the Church (in Ephesus). In other words, the Apostle Paul taught that church elders must work hard, providing for their own necessities, in order to help the weak (rather than being a burden to them).

Y’know, Pharaoh accused the Hebrew slaves of laziness when they cried out for release from the burden of heavy labor and unjust demands which he had placed on them. It’s a pretty common thing for oppressors to do to the oppressed. Be careful not to follow after his example.

]]> By: Kevin http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20822 Kevin Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:52:04 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20822 Travis, I respect what you have said in your posts and i do understand the 10% as a tithe debat but would like to honestly know how you think Church should be done? I have been in full time ministry for 20 years and am by no means a "Legalist" but have seen way too many people uses your argument as an "excuse" to not give anything at all! If Churches today functioned by this teaching of yours then in reality you would have no "Chesapeke Community Church" like you currently have to worship in! I just think it's a lame excuse for people that want to be greedy with their resources and say it's an unbiblical principle. If that's the case then let's practice the NT teaching of selling everything and giving it to the needy. The whole point of my rambling post for you is "How does the Bibical model of Church function without the tithe?" kevin Travis, I respect what you have said in your posts and i do understand the 10% as a tithe debat but would like to honestly know how you think Church should be done? I have been in full time ministry for 20 years and am by no means a “Legalist” but have seen way too many people uses your argument as an “excuse” to not give anything at all!

If Churches today functioned by this teaching of yours then in reality you would have no “Chesapeke Community Church” like you currently have to worship in!

I just think it’s a lame excuse for people that want to be greedy with their resources and say it’s an unbiblical principle. If that’s the case then let’s practice the NT teaching of selling everything and giving it to the needy.

The whole point of my rambling post for you is “How does the Bibical model of Church function without the tithe?” kevin

]]> By: DAVID http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20810 DAVID Wed, 28 Jan 2009 05:15:23 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20810 To Whoever Has Time To Read This, A few quick points, and I hope I'm not repeating points that have already been said (I never read everyone elses opinions, only some). 1) Tithing is not just about the Law of Moses, Abraham tithed before the Law was given, see Genesis 14:18-20. 2) I read earlier that someone said (and I quote),"I am appalled at how many preachers tell their poor sick members to give their first 10% to the church. That is sin and goes against Acts 20:35" (end quote) Acts 20:35 says (at the end), "It is more blessed to give than to receive". If "givers" receive a "blessing" shouldn't pastors who care about the Church encourage "poor sick members" to give so that they may receive that blessing! Tithing is a great place to start and it is very honoring to the Lord, just like Abraham. 3) According to Acts 2:45; 4:34,35 the New Testament Church gave alot more than 10%. 4) One more thing to remember, tithing is not a "salvation issue" but it is definitely a "heart issues". If any one would like to talk more on this my e-mail is GraceandTruthCC@msn.com, and yes, I am a pastor. I teach people to tithe so they may honor and obey the Lord, and the Lord is so faithful to take care of His sheep! Thank you! To Whoever Has Time To Read This,

A few quick points, and I hope I’m not repeating points that have already been said (I never read everyone elses opinions, only some).
1) Tithing is not just about the Law of Moses, Abraham tithed before the Law was given, see Genesis 14:18-20.

2) I read earlier that someone said (and I quote),”I am appalled at how many preachers tell their poor sick members to give their first 10% to the church. That is sin and goes against Acts 20:35″ (end quote)
Acts 20:35 says (at the end), “It is more blessed to give than to receive”. If “givers” receive a “blessing” shouldn’t pastors who care about the Church encourage “poor sick members” to give so that they may receive that blessing! Tithing is a great place to start and it is very honoring to the Lord, just like Abraham.

3) According to Acts 2:45; 4:34,35 the New Testament Church gave alot more than 10%.

4) One more thing to remember, tithing is not a “salvation issue” but it is definitely a “heart issues”.

If any one would like to talk more on this my e-mail is GraceandTruthCC@msn.com, and yes, I am a pastor. I teach people to tithe so they may honor and obey the Lord, and the Lord is so faithful to take care of His sheep! Thank you!

]]> By: ANDRE DEAN http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-4#comment-20801 ANDRE DEAN Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:44:04 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20801 MUCH BLESSING TO YOU I HAVE BEEN PUT OUT THE CHURCH I BEEN TAIKING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT FOR 22 YEARS AND STILL TAIKING WERE EVER I GO THE BIBLE STATES MY PEOPLE ARE DESTOY FOR LACK KNOWELGE MUCH BLESSING TO YOU KEEP UP THE WORK TO SET GOD PEOPLE FREE AND I WILL DO YHE SAME MUCH RESPECT........... MUCH BLESSING TO YOU I HAVE BEEN PUT OUT THE CHURCH I BEEN TAIKING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT FOR 22 YEARS AND STILL TAIKING WERE EVER I GO THE BIBLE STATES MY PEOPLE ARE DESTOY FOR LACK KNOWELGE MUCH BLESSING TO YOU KEEP UP THE WORK TO SET GOD PEOPLE FREE AND I WILL DO YHE SAME MUCH RESPECT………..

]]> By: Ribu John http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20772 Ribu John Tue, 09 Dec 2008 04:30:13 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20772 Travis- I've bookmarked this page, so I can check back every so often. But if you want, just email me about this issue in a back-and-forth. Posting publically here is fine too. Despite what you may read from me at the ccnet christian comics forum (user: CrypticMyopic), my intention is not to fight about things. :) I know I rub your buddy Kneon the wrong way, but you and I can still be tithe-topic buddies, right?? hehe A little jokey-joke... JK... I like Kneon- after all, Transformers 2 is coming out soon (just ask him about this using Transformers 2 and Cryptic Ribu John in the same sentence). -Ribu John Travis-

I’ve bookmarked this page, so I can check back every so often. But if you want, just email me about this issue in a back-and-forth. Posting publically here is fine too. Despite what you may read from me at the ccnet christian comics forum (user: CrypticMyopic), my intention is not to fight about things. :) I know I rub your buddy Kneon the wrong way, but you and I can still be tithe-topic buddies, right?? hehe A little jokey-joke… JK… I like Kneon- after all, Transformers 2 is coming out soon (just ask him about this using Transformers 2 and Cryptic Ribu John in the same sentence).

-Ribu John

]]> By: Ribu John http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20771 Ribu John Tue, 09 Dec 2008 04:21:15 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20771 Preacher- All glory to God. But I hope your training sessions go well. Preacher-

All glory to God. But I hope your training sessions go well.

]]> By: Travis http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20721 Travis Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:15:37 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20721 You know, I always meant to get back to Ribu John on his last comment. In fact, I have a drafted response laying around here somewhere... ...but not today. Maybe tomorrow, or the day after, or next week. Suffice it to say, I remain unconvinced by his unoriginal (and deeply flawed) defense of Christian "tithing." You know, I always meant to get back to Ribu John on his last comment. In fact, I have a drafted response laying around here somewhere…

…but not today. Maybe tomorrow, or the day after, or next week. Suffice it to say, I remain unconvinced by his unoriginal (and deeply flawed) defense of Christian “tithing.”

]]> By: Preacher http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20720 Preacher Thu, 06 Nov 2008 06:51:34 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20720 Ribu John- You exegesis scriptures very well. I thoroughly enjoyed your sublime dissertation of biblical tithing principles. I’ve done an in-depth examination of Ten Commandments and intent to teach them to young and mature Christians. This information will be tremendously beneficial to the congregants at my soon to be church. I can add this information to a certain part of the teaching. If people could only comprehend God’s agape love then giving will be a breeze. Thanks for your conscientious labor and diligence in clarifying these scriptures. God bless you all. A fellow laborer in Christ- Ribu John-

You exegesis scriptures very well.

I thoroughly enjoyed your sublime dissertation of biblical tithing principles. I’ve done an in-depth examination of Ten Commandments and intent to teach them to young and mature Christians. This information will be tremendously beneficial to the congregants at my soon to be church. I can add this information to a certain part of the teaching. If people could only comprehend God’s agape love then giving will be a breeze. Thanks for your conscientious labor and diligence in clarifying these scriptures.

God bless you all.

A fellow laborer in Christ-

]]> By: Ribu John http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20444 Ribu John Sat, 13 Sep 2008 06:14:54 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20444 Ann- Find a new church. There are lots of problems when looking for churches. We live in a corrupt world, and God's truths are going to be corrupted by both men and women of God as well as by men and women who don't beleive in God. Use your brain and pray for wisdom. -Ribu John Ann- Find a new church.

There are lots of problems when looking for churches. We live in a corrupt world, and God’s truths are going to be corrupted by both men and women of God as well as by men and women who don’t beleive in God.

Use your brain and pray for wisdom.

-Ribu John

]]> By: ann http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20369 ann Wed, 27 Aug 2008 00:10:53 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20369 Hello, I sat and read almost all of the post and I have thisto say.I was and still kinda a member of a small church about 10 members. I was giving tithes faithfully about $200 a week. I knew that the majority of the members were receiving food stamps , fixed income and the only people that worked were me, the pastors husband and her daughter.I gave willingly because I assumed that when the members needed help the pastor would have the funds to give them food and etc.. I have 7 children and my husband use to bring them to church when I had to work. at that time we were renting hotel rooms for service. the pastor brought alot of new outfits and getting her hair done " she stated "if the pastor looks tore up it looks bad for our church"The money was being spent on herself and her family members, when her daughter would preach she would give her money, when her son-in-law say a few words she would give him money. Our family left because she lied about giving certain gifts to the needy children. She brought her family expensive things and gave the other children 99 cent things .It is a lot more to tell but it doesn't matter now. I went to the church(they now have a building that a Catholic pastor loaned them which is about to be foreclosed on) I sense that if i start to give tithes again I don't know where it will go.You are supposed to give with a glad heart. It hurts to think how she made a single mother spend her food stamps on ingredients for pie sale for the church and not help her when she needs food. I try to get souls and talk to people but the first thing everyone says it they can't afford to go to church. that might be an excuse but I feel that way when the preacher asks for specific amounts and pass collection plate with envelopes so you have to write down your name and amount. Should I continue to tithe there? Am I wrong to feel this way? Am I sinning? Hello, I sat and read almost all of the post and I have thisto say.I was and still kinda a member of a small church about 10 members. I was giving tithes faithfully about $200 a week. I knew that the majority of the members were receiving food stamps , fixed income and the only people that worked were me, the pastors husband and her daughter.I gave willingly because I assumed that when the members needed help the pastor would have the funds to give them food and etc.. I have 7 children and my husband use to bring them to church when I had to work. at that time we were renting hotel rooms for service. the pastor brought alot of new outfits and getting her hair done ” she stated “if the pastor looks tore up it looks bad for our church”The money was being spent on herself and her family members, when her daughter would preach she would give her money, when her son-in-law say a few words she would give him money. Our family left because she lied about giving certain gifts to the needy children. She brought her family expensive things and gave the other children 99 cent things .It is a lot more to tell but it doesn’t matter now. I went to the church(they now have a building that a Catholic pastor loaned them which is about to be foreclosed on) I sense that if i start to give tithes again I don’t know where it will go.You are supposed to give with a glad heart. It hurts to think how she made a single mother spend her food stamps on ingredients for pie sale for the church and not help her when she needs food. I try to get souls and talk to people but the first thing everyone says it they can’t afford to go to church. that might be an excuse but I feel that way when the preacher asks for specific amounts and pass collection plate with envelopes so you have to write down your name and amount. Should I continue to tithe there? Am I wrong to feel this way? Am I sinning?

]]> By: Odochi http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20312 Odochi Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:16:35 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20312 Why is something so simple as tithing such a big issue with you? Why is something so simple as tithing such a big issue with you?

]]> By: Ribu John http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20291 Ribu John Sat, 02 Aug 2008 04:51:06 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20291 I just don't understand why the Apostle Paul would teach in 1 Timothy 5:18 that the pastor deserves his wages and that we shouldn't keep him from getting wages from the church (don't muzzle the ox) if it would be just as okay to not write a check to the pastor. Out of the tithe check, the pastor gets paid, but also the poor get help (its called the Barnabas barrel in many churches), ministries and outreaches get funded, and the church is maintained for the needs of the building. Also other church workers get paid. Why shouldn't we write a check to the pastor? Is EVERY pastor expected to be a tentmaker like Paul was? If so, then why 1 Timothy 5:18? When we write a check to the pastor, we pay the pastor, and we take care of the poor, and we fund ministries and missions. All those things are done for Jesus. Of course, needless to say, a tithe check to the pastor is for all intents and purposes a check to Christ himself. That's the way it works out if the pastor is the honest sort. -Ribu John I just don’t understand why the Apostle Paul would teach in 1 Timothy 5:18 that the pastor deserves his wages and that we shouldn’t keep him from getting wages from the church (don’t muzzle the ox) if it would be just as okay to not write a check to the pastor. Out of the tithe check, the pastor gets paid, but also the poor get help (its called the Barnabas barrel in many churches), ministries and outreaches get funded, and the church is maintained for the needs of the building. Also other church workers get paid.

Why shouldn’t we write a check to the pastor? Is EVERY pastor expected to be a tentmaker like Paul was? If so, then why 1 Timothy 5:18?

When we write a check to the pastor, we pay the pastor, and we take care of the poor, and we fund ministries and missions. All those things are done for Jesus. Of course, needless to say, a tithe check to the pastor is for all intents and purposes a check to Christ himself. That’s the way it works out if the pastor is the honest sort.

-Ribu John

]]> By: Travis http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20290 Travis Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:39:49 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20290 Jesus said that <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:37-40" rel="nofollow">we give to him</a> when we give to the poor (who <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=Luke+14:12-14" rel="nofollow">can't repay us</a>). Did he ever say that we give to him when we write a check to a pastor? Jesus said that we give to him when we give to the poor (who can’t repay us).

Did he ever say that we give to him when we write a check to a pastor?

]]> By: jonathan http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20289 jonathan Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:28:46 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20289 a tithe was an offering to the Lord to remind us that we need him, regardless of how much we earn or how much we don't earn. as far as God's commandment, it is physically impossible to follow each and every one of His commandments to the t. Jesus even says that even if you think of sinning against another, then that is equal to have committed the sin physically. the fact of the matter is God sent Jesus, because only Jesus could live a life worthy enough to say it was perfect, and He died a death that we had to suffer, in it's entirety, so that we have no need to either live or die the death that we deserve. there is nothing that we can do to redeem ourselves of the sinful lives that we all lead. no matter how many good deeds you do, no matter how well we follow the commandments, no matter how well we try to avoid thinking lustful, covetful, even maybe murderous thoughts, we will always fall flat because in the end, we are only human, as the saying goes. that's why we tithe. it's a reminder of who we really need in our lives and how grateful we are of the blood of Christ shed FOR us so that we may be lifted up. So tithe, it's humbling. a tithe was an offering to the Lord to remind us that we need him, regardless of how much we earn or how much we don’t earn.

as far as God’s commandment, it is physically impossible to follow each and every one of His commandments to the t. Jesus even says that even if you think of sinning against another, then that is equal to have committed the sin physically. the fact of the matter is God sent Jesus, because only Jesus could live a life worthy enough to say it was perfect, and He died a death that we had to suffer, in it’s entirety, so that we have no need to either live or die the death that we deserve. there is nothing that we can do to redeem ourselves of the sinful lives that we all lead. no matter how many good deeds you do, no matter how well we follow the commandments, no matter how well we try to avoid thinking lustful, covetful, even maybe murderous thoughts, we will always fall flat because in the end, we are only human, as the saying goes.

that’s why we tithe. it’s a reminder of who we really need in our lives and how grateful we are of the blood of Christ shed FOR us so that we may be lifted up. So tithe, it’s humbling.

]]> By: Ribu John http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20285 Ribu John Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:37:53 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20285 Jesus word's that the Pharisees should not neglect the tithe don't count? I would read it as a mandate of implication. In fact, Paul teaches that we are to provide for the pastors and missionaries (1 Corinthians 9:7, and all the rest of the beginning of chapter 9- and 1 Timothy 5:18 which teaches that pastors deserve their wages in honor). This is even though Paul himself worked as a tentmaker in order to minister to more people through commerce and teach "ministry in the workplace" to new Christians (and to us who have jobs in today's world- and work with unbeleivers). Tell me, how should we support the pastors and missionaries. Is there a viable option to replace the tithe? Also remember, the tithe has nothing to do with Mosaic law. After all, Abraham predated Mosaic law, but he still tithed. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek while Melchizedek was in the position of High Priest of the Most High God before Christ took that position (see Hebrews 7). It stands to reason that Christ, as High Priest, now gets the tithes. One can see that even in the time of Cain and Abel there was giving to God in some sense. People will make the argument that we don't have to follow the old testament. And they'll say the Mosaic laws in particular are no longer valid. While it's true that many of them were made obsolete by Christ and the apostles, the tithe itself was not one of them. Nowhere does it say in the New Testament that we don't have to tithe anymore. I would stand against any pastor saying something ludicrous like "people are ROBBING GOD if they don't tithe!" using a opportunistic interpretation of Malachi 3. That would be because God doesn't judge solely by the wallet, but by the heart. I would also be against using and interpretation of "firstfruits doctrine" for teaching that tithing be from the gross income instead of the net increase. And while it is true that churces during the new testament era, and many other eras such as the dark and middke ages, were probably too poor to tithe enough to support their pastors or the apostles and other missionanaries, or to tithe at all, the fact remains that the principle of supporting those in ministry was set up by Paul, regardless of whether or not Paul chose to use support for himself. This in conjunction with Christ's implication that the tithe should not be neglected both serve to lead to a rationalization that pastors and missionaries and churches should then be supported via tithing. -Ribu John Jesus word’s that the Pharisees should not neglect the tithe don’t count? I would read it as a mandate of implication.

In fact, Paul teaches that we are to provide for the pastors and missionaries (1 Corinthians 9:7, and all the rest of the beginning of chapter 9- and 1 Timothy 5:18 which teaches that pastors deserve their wages in honor). This is even though Paul himself worked as a tentmaker in order to minister to more people through commerce and teach “ministry in the workplace” to new Christians (and to us who have jobs in today’s world- and work with unbeleivers). Tell me, how should we support the pastors and missionaries. Is there a viable option to replace the tithe?

Also remember, the tithe has nothing to do with Mosaic law. After all, Abraham predated Mosaic law, but he still tithed. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek while Melchizedek was in the position of High Priest of the Most High God before Christ took that position (see Hebrews 7). It stands to reason that Christ, as High Priest, now gets the tithes. One can see that even in the time of Cain and Abel there was giving to God in some sense.

People will make the argument that we don’t have to follow the old testament. And they’ll say the Mosaic laws in particular are no longer valid. While it’s true that many of them were made obsolete by Christ and the apostles, the tithe itself was not one of them. Nowhere does it say in the New Testament that we don’t have to tithe anymore.

I would stand against any pastor saying something ludicrous like “people are ROBBING GOD if they don’t tithe!” using a opportunistic interpretation of Malachi 3. That would be because God doesn’t judge solely by the wallet, but by the heart. I would also be against using and interpretation of “firstfruits doctrine” for teaching that tithing be from the gross income instead of the net increase. And while it is true that churces during the new testament era, and many other eras such as the dark and middke ages, were probably too poor to tithe enough to support their pastors or the apostles and other missionanaries, or to tithe at all, the fact remains that the principle of supporting those in ministry was set up by Paul, regardless of whether or not Paul chose to use support for himself. This in conjunction with Christ’s implication that the tithe should not be neglected both serve to lead to a rationalization that pastors and missionaries and churches should then be supported via tithing.

-Ribu John

]]> By: Travis http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20269 Travis Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:35:28 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20269 Ribu, where was tithing mandated to "fund the church"? Ribu, where was tithing mandated to “fund the church”?

]]> By: Ribu John http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20267 Ribu John Fri, 25 Jul 2008 07:56:07 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20267 No game? wha... We're talking about tithing. We're not talking about practice. Mr. Iverson, are we talking about practice? Travis, it's nice to see a Christian in the comics industry, since there are few in it. Kudos to you for breaking in, and for having a blog. But your blog isn't exactly Stan's Soapbox, and any of your views on tithing (or any other subject) aren't equal to voices of the apostles, church fathers, or to Lewis, Charles Stanley or even Alistair Begg. Plus, I'm not here to invade your blog-kingdom and challenge your throne in your own house. I know this, however, when I study the scripture or discuss the scripture, it is not a game to me. I'm here on this Earth to learn and grow in the Lord like everyone else posting here. I used to never tithe. Please do understand that, like you, I have also researched the subject to come to the conclusion that I need not tithe. Having further researched it, I reversed that decision and concluded that tithing is indeed pleasing to God and a Christ-given directive, further backed by Paul. I was willing to change my mind. Furthermore, I convinced myself, in Berean fashion. No pastor took me under his wing and plied me with a cocktail of guilt, emotions, and scriptures for that to happen. I simply changed my mind in the course of study. I stand by the comments about people being bitter after seeing churches in corruption. Spiritual abuse is a huge problem in Evangelical-style Christianity. It is a tool of Satan often in the hands of once well-meaning pastors who have gotten on a high horse and think they can start twisting the scriptures in order to achieve some good. These pastors steadily and surely become villians, a la the effect of the Ring in Tolkien's work. I'm fairly certain none of these liars started off that way. They learned to justify lying, and in their actions, scarred many people. Many of those people came to hate God becuase of how they were manipulated for money in a church. Like I said before, tithe to support the church. It's not as big a financial burden as people fear. It won't kill anyone who budgets. Churches need tithes. It's the best way to fund the church, and that is why it was mandated in wisdom. No game? wha…

We’re talking about tithing. We’re not talking about practice. Mr. Iverson, are we talking about practice?

Travis, it’s nice to see a Christian in the comics industry, since there are few in it. Kudos to you for breaking in, and for having a blog.

But your blog isn’t exactly Stan’s Soapbox, and any of your views on tithing (or any other subject) aren’t equal to voices of the apostles, church fathers, or to Lewis, Charles Stanley or even Alistair Begg. Plus, I’m not here to invade your blog-kingdom and challenge your throne in your own house. I know this, however, when I study the scripture or discuss the scripture, it is not a game to me. I’m here on this Earth to learn and grow in the Lord like everyone else posting here.

I used to never tithe. Please do understand that, like you, I have also researched the subject to come to the conclusion that I need not tithe. Having further researched it, I reversed that decision and concluded that tithing is indeed pleasing to God and a Christ-given directive, further backed by Paul. I was willing to change my mind. Furthermore, I convinced myself, in Berean fashion. No pastor took me under his wing and plied me with a cocktail of guilt, emotions, and scriptures for that to happen. I simply changed my mind in the course of study.

I stand by the comments about people being bitter after seeing churches in corruption. Spiritual abuse is a huge problem in Evangelical-style Christianity. It is a tool of Satan often in the hands of once well-meaning pastors who have gotten on a high horse and think they can start twisting the scriptures in order to achieve some good. These pastors steadily and surely become villians, a la the effect of the Ring in Tolkien’s work. I’m fairly certain none of these liars started off that way. They learned to justify lying, and in their actions, scarred many people. Many of those people came to hate God becuase of how they were manipulated for money in a church.

Like I said before, tithe to support the church. It’s not as big a financial burden as people fear. It won’t kill anyone who budgets. Churches need tithes. It’s the best way to fund the church, and that is why it was mandated in wisdom.

]]> By: Travis http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20264 Travis Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:59:24 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20264 <em>"People who are very bitter after being in churches that abuse the tithe system tend to overcompensate"</em> Other than using "react" instead of "overcompensate," I agree with you here. Now: given that I began questioning this particular doctrine during my membership classes (after which I joined, then remained a member for nearly two years), are you really going to accuse me of being such a bitter reactionary? Jesus told people under the Law to obey the Law. At the very same time, he made it abundantly clear that the tithe regulations weren't important parts of the Law. Hebrews 7 says that Jesus is a different kind of priest. It says absolutely NOTHING about who (if anyone) we're supposed to tithe to. Ribu, you have no substantial argument in support of tithing, so you try to make a level playing field by claiming that nobody else does, either (that's the point of your first paragraph). But man, <em>you have no game.</em> So stop trying; you're only going to embarrass yourself. “People who are very bitter after being in churches that abuse the tithe system tend to overcompensate”

Other than using “react” instead of “overcompensate,” I agree with you here. Now: given that I began questioning this particular doctrine during my membership classes (after which I joined, then remained a member for nearly two years), are you really going to accuse me of being such a bitter reactionary?

Jesus told people under the Law to obey the Law. At the very same time, he made it abundantly clear that the tithe regulations weren’t important parts of the Law.

Hebrews 7 says that Jesus is a different kind of priest. It says absolutely NOTHING about who (if anyone) we’re supposed to tithe to.

Ribu, you have no substantial argument in support of tithing, so you try to make a level playing field by claiming that nobody else does, either (that’s the point of your first paragraph). But man, you have no game. So stop trying; you’re only going to embarrass yourself.

]]> By: Ribu John http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html/comment-page-3#comment-20262 Ribu John Thu, 24 Jul 2008 03:34:39 +0000 http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comment-20262 Psychoanalysis: People who are very bitter after being in churches that abuse the tithe system tend to overcompensate and try to find any and all arguments that excuse them from tithing. They are understandably upset, disillusioned, and they feel cheated. They are determined to never tithe again, so they never have to feel cheated again. Jesus said to not neglect the tithe. These words were uttered by Christ himself in Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42. Also see Hebrews 7 for an explanation of how Christ is the new High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, and as Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, so we are to tithe now to Christ. People need to try to stop making escuse for themselves through "justification interpretations". Just tithe already. 10% off your net income won't kill you. Psychoanalysis: People who are very bitter after being in churches that abuse the tithe system tend to overcompensate and try to find any and all arguments that excuse them from tithing. They are understandably upset, disillusioned, and they feel cheated. They are determined to never tithe again, so they never have to feel cheated again.

Jesus said to not neglect the tithe. These words were uttered by Christ himself in Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42. Also see Hebrews 7 for an explanation of how Christ is the new High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, and as Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, so we are to tithe now to Christ.

People need to try to stop making escuse for themselves through “justification interpretations”. Just tithe already. 10% off your net income won’t kill you.

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