What Does the Bible Say About Tithing?
That’s a question I’ve been asking over the past year. I basically grew up with a “10% of all gross income goes in the offering plate” understanding of Christian giving… but that changed about a year ago, when I began to study the topic in earnest.
For instance, one thing that constantly trips up modern-day Christians is that we fail to remember that the Law given to Moses did not merely outline a religious system… it was a constitution establishing a nation’s government. Thus, we need not only to discern which laws were sacrificial in nature (as Christians, we hold that Jesus Christ is our atonement and makes all other sacrifices—and thus all laws requiring sacrifices—moot), but also whether certain laws were governmental or sacramental in nature. While this may be a simple process with the laws of a “secular” nation, it can get difficult when you’re dealing with a theocracy.
My studies keep drawing me to the same conclusion: God’s eternal Law of Love compels us to serve the poor, but the tithe laws were a form of taxation, and served as the welfare system for Ancient Israel. Thus, these laws only apply to those under the Old Covenant living in geographical Israel.
Deuteronomy 15:7-11 (which I wrote about recently) provides the framework for all God-glorifying giving, and serves as the “spirit of the law” regarding money, possessions and neighbors:
If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye [be evil toward] your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the LORD against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be [evil] when you give to him, because for this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’
The tithes, while a sacrifice to the LORD, were arranged in such a way as to serve as the particular fulfillment of this command with regards to the Levites (as God forbade them from owning land, cf. Deut. 18:1-8), as well as other poor in the Israelites’ midst (Deut. 14:22-29). Additionally, not only here but also in Nehemiah’s time (after two months of working daily with wood, stone, etc. to rebuild the wall around Jerusalem), the reinstated tithe consisted solely of agricultural produce (Neh. 10:35-39).
Now when you begin to question the tithe, the knee-jerk response you often get is a quote from The Most Overused Tithe Verse In The Bible: “Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions.” Congratulations, you have now been labeled a God-robber! However, this is neither faithful exegesis nor Biblical correction. It’s simply propaganda and browbeating. To show you that this is the case, let me share the entire passage with you, and pay attention to what I emphasize:
Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. Bring the full tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the LORD of hosts. Then all nations will call you blessed, for you will be a land of delight, says the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 3:8-12, ESV)
Let me make it perfectly clear: the tithes were never about collecting money for the Temple. Tithing was the means by which a food bank was kept for the poor and needy in Israel.
There is only one passage in all of Scripture which speaks of money in relation to the tithe: Deuteronomy 14:22-29. However, the money is never actually given to the Levite. Rather, it is used only as a convenient form of transport for those who must travel a long distance. Once the tither arrives at Jerusalem, he is commanded to convert the money back into food, strong drink (beer), etc. and to consume these items with the Levite, sojourner, fatherless and widow (that is, those without such provision). And you know what? Jesus mentioned something much like this in Luke’s gospel:
[Jesus] said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:12-14, ESV)
Never, all in Scripture, is a tithe used to pay building and maintenance expenses for a meeting-house or clergy. The tithe is food, and it’s used to feed people—period. Freewill offerings (and/or perhaps a modern-day equivalent to Nehemiah’s “temple tax”) are the only Biblically-approved source of income from which such things as Equipment Upgrades, Insurance, Janitorial Services, Payroll Expenses, Repairs and Maintenance, Utilities, Mortgages, etc. are to be paid.
In contrast to the Old Covenant system, Paul set aside any pastoral “right” to live off the ministry and instead worked additional jobs to provide for his own expenses. He reasoned that he stood to gain no heavenly reward from “simply” preaching the Gospel (1 Cor. 9:15) and must go out of his way to make it a completely free gift if he were to receive anything from the Father because of his work. However, if Paul were simply a “New Covenant priest” he would have been leading the churches into sin by causing them to break God’s Law which required a community to feed its Levites (again, Deut. 18:1-8). Thus, we can infer that Paul did not believe these laws were binding for ministers of the Gospel.
That being the case, a Christian pastor ought not presume to live off of the tithes of his people. If a tithe is requested of the congregation, then Biblically it needs to be food, and it needs to be distributed to people who need food. (Which is to say, faithful application of the tithe laws requires the establishment of a congregational food bank.) Beyond that, there is no Biblical requirement to “lay [any] money at the [pastors'] feet.” (It is certainly encouraged as the decent thing to do for a chap who has given his whole lives to serving you and yours spiritually… but it’s not required.) In and 4, the money laid at the apostles’ feet was “distributed to each as any had need” (Acts 2:44-45; Acts 4:32-35). Likewise, the money collected on Paul’s behalf from the Church in Macedonia, Achaia, and Corinth was going directly to feed the Christians in Jerusalem who were suffering through a famine—not to line his personal “chariot fund.” And of course a meeting-house is nice, but depleting a collected tithe to fund it—or even to keep it lit and climate-controlled—is unbiblical.
So if I don’t think the tithe applies to us today, does that mean I can get away with not giving anything? God forbid! On the contrary, I believe Christians are to “sell [their] possessions, and give to the needy” (Luke 12:33), but are not bound by a 10-33% annual tithe to modern-day Levites per se. The sacrificial system is no longer binding, but I am still bound by the perfect Law of Love: specifically, to “love [my] neighbor as [myself],” (Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 19:19, etc.) and thus to “remember the poor” (Gal. 2:10), “open wide [my] hand to [my] brother, to the needy and to the poor, in [my] land” (Deut. 15:11), “bear with the failings of the weak, and not… please [myself]“ (Rom. 15:1-3, cf. vv. 25-27), and to “contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality” (Rom. 12:13) “that there may be fairness” (2 Corinthians 8:13-15). Sometimes fairness means giving 1%, sometimes 99%.
But the most ironic thing about my tithe law studies is that some of those who are being commanded to “tithe” (give 10% of your gross income) to “the church” (really meaning “the pastors”) are actually poor enough that the pastors are required by God’s Word to be tithing to them.
So in conclusion: Christians are commanded to give to the poor and needy in our midst, but we are not bound by tithe laws. However, even if one were convinced that Christians must tithe, a faithful reading of Scripture insists the tithe be used to feed the poor. It is wholly foreign to the Word of God to use a tithe on buildings, utilities, vacations, insurance or even clothing.
March 14th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Thank you for speaking the truth and getting it published. I wish that people would read all of Malachi and discover that the priests from 1:6 and 2:1 were cursed as thieves. Jesus’ quote in Acts 20:35 “It is more blessed to give than to receive” is addressed to elders of the church whom Paul was telling to get a job and take care of the needs of the poor. Somehow this has been reversed and the poor are now told to give their last dollar to the church as a firstfruit tithe (even though firstfruts and tihes are different). My web site has almsot 100 articles about tithing, a free book and an essay nobody has tried to rebutt. http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com
March 14th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
Travis,
Here are some interesting links on not making tithing mandatory.
http://mrclm.blogspot.com/2006/11/to-tithe-or-not-to-tithe.html
http://mrclm.blogspot.com/2006/12/dr-andreas-kostenberger-on-tithing.html
http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/
http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/?p=75
http://biblicalfoundations.org/pdf/pdfarticles/bbrtithing1.pdf
http://biblicalfoundations.org/pdf/pdfarticles/bbrtithing2.pdf
Sincerely,
Paul Schafer
March 14th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
God loves a cheerful giver. The tithe is a good place to start but doesn’t tell the whole story. Really all of our money is the Lord’s not just ten percent or thirty percent. We should give what the Lord convicts us to give and do it joyfully.
March 14th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Here’s a recycled comment for you…
You know, most of the churches I’ve been to over the past decade haven’t adhered to the tithing doctrine. Our old church in Punxsutawney didn’t even pass a collection plate. You gave discreetly. There was a box around the corner, and if you felt moved to give, great. If not, you weren’t put on the spot. That’s great, because when I was young and dirt poor I actually avoided checking out some churches because I always felt I couldn’t pay the “cover charge.” :-/
March 14th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Travis,
what happen to my comments from earlier today?
Paul
March 14th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Travis,
Thank you. Now wassup with your sidebar? It seems to like migrating in the middle of the page.
March 14th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
Travis,
Have you talked to your pastors at Chesapeake Community Church about your tithing issue? If you have, want kind of a response did they give you? If you haven’t, can you?
Paul
March 14th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
ScottyB,
Your statement “it is a good place to start” sounds real good and it comes out of many t mouths automatically. However it is not biblical. It assumes that the Bible teaches that everybody in the OT began their giving level at 10%. That was only true for those who earned their living as farmers or herdsmen inside Israel. Craftsmen, traders, fishrmen, tentmakers and teachers were never required to begin their giving level at 10%. While I think that most Christiians can and should give more than 10%, I am appalled at how many preachers tell their poor sick members to give their first 10% to the church. That is sin and goes against Acts 20:35 and 1 Timothy 5:8.
March 14th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Travis,
You’re just a crap-stirrer and you’re going to hell. It sounds like you would rather just do away with hyper-organized religion and just move in to someone’s basement and do good for your local community all the time. Sounds like a hell factory to me.
Obviously, I’m kidding. This is good work here. However, I kind of feel like your up against the internal combustion engine here. I don’t see an alternative fuel coming out any time soon. Kind of like I don’t see those who earn a living off of 10%er’s telling the congregation to give it to Habitat for Humanity this month and the Harford Food Bank next. Maybe churches need more causes or purpose. I would throw my 10% every month at my local church if I knew it was going to good causes. Instead my family sets aside money and we give some to the church and other times we give none. We buy food for a poor family in Park Heights in Baltimore City. I’m not going to tell them to starve because I have to give my money to my local church. That money is coming right out of the tithe section in Quicken.
I am eye to eye with you on this one. Thanks for taking the time to write all this.
March 14th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
@ ScottyB: True about giving as much as God leads, but you also need to give where he leads, too. And the sad thing is that many churches don’t distribute their collected monies Biblically… so a wise steward needs to find other ways to get such gifts to those people they’re intended for.
@ Paul Schafer: This post is actually a minor modification of the e-mail I sent one of my pastors a few months back.
@ Dr. Kelly: Good insights — and even poor farmers didn’t necessarily have to give 10%, if “every tenth cattle” means you’re off the hook if you have only nine.
@ Brian Powell: You said, “I kind of feel like your up against the internal combustion engine,” but there’s one major difference: I don’t need to tithe to get to my job or the grocery store. (That is, alternative fuels might stand a chance if people weren’t so addicted to fossil fuels.)
Thanks for the great comments, everyone! Let’s keep ‘em coming! (And hey, disagreement is okay, too… so long as you can put up a decent fight!)
March 14th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
questions…Did you tithe (give of your gross earnings) when you felt that it was a part of Christian life? Do you give any of your money away at this time? Why is the story of the old woman who gave her 2 cents included in the bible? What are your qualifications that make you an authority on this subject?
March 14th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Also…Are you curently having difficult financial problems related to your job or home life?
March 14th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Dr Kelly, I respectfully would like to point out a few ideas based on your anti-tithing website:
1) I would like to speak personally with any of those folks you have mentioned in your website whom you claim to live in “jaded” walls. They won’t speak to me either…for one reason. They never heard of me. They don’t know me from Adam…I’d like to debate a lot of people. But they won’t because they get thousands of letters from people who want to debate them. Why do you think they should choose you to debate? Who wants to debate anybody unless they have some underlying agenda? Do you have an underlying agenda?
2) I don’t think asking to debate Larry Burkett on your website is very respectful. Mr Burkett is dead. The next time you see him, I don’t think either one of you will be debating anything. You both will be worshiping our God and Creator!
March 14th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
@ Domo: Those are interesting questions. This one sounds like an honest question, so I’ll answer it:
Why is the story of the old woman who gave her 2 cents included in the bible?
She put it in the offering box. It was a freewill offering, not a tithe.
Your other questions are rather poor attempts at marginalizing me. You would do better to actually read the Scriptures I referred to and deal with the case I presented, rather than trying to make me look like an ignorant, greedy backslider who’s trying to justify his sin.
March 14th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Why won’t you answer the questions? I don’t want to “maginalize” anything. I would like to “debate” this issue. I Just think you are wrong. Is thinking you are wrong a problem with you? I don’t think you are greedy. I’m just trying to understand where you come from.
March 14th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Those other questions aren’t about debating what the Bible says, which is the issue here.
Now since it looks like you’re a local (I’m reading server logs), we could always meet to talk over those other questions. You just shoot me off an e-mail if that sounds like a plan.
March 14th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Do I tithe gross? No and neither do you. A true Biblical tithe must come from the farms and herds of OT Israelites living inside Israel. Even Israelites living outside Israel were not allowed to bring tithes off pagan land.
Do I give anything away? How about 15,000 FREE downloads of my book. Though legally blind and middle class I preach and teach for free and give gospel concerts for free. I just gave several hundred dollars to my missionary son.
Am I suffering financial problems. No, thank God.
What qualifies me to talk about tithing? A PHD on tithing. A close friend, Dr David Croteau, just got his PHD on the same subject from a Southern Baptist Seminary.
You are the second person today to remind me that Larry Burkett is dead. I apologize and will change my web site immediately. None of the other living proponents will debate me either and the challenge has been out there for five years.
Again I say that most can and should give more than 10% but that does not justify robbing the widows and the single mnothers who cannot do so. God bless them becasue they were the heart fo the early church. Acts 20:35 adn 1 Tim 5:8 are still in the NT.
If you want to debate me, go to Tithing-Study at Yahoo Groups. See you there.
March 14th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
Travis,
The reason why I asked you if you submitted this to your leaders recently is because I feel like I am in the same boat as you. I have read Dr. Kostenberger’s two Tithing PDF’s and that gave me encouragement to know that tithing is not mandatory in the New Testament by giving is. I want to find out how your leaders reacted to your position and how that affected your position in the church and in the Sovereign Grace Ministries.
My pastor and the church leadership staff is pro-tithing and expects people who are official members to give their tithes. While I am not in a position to give a full tithe because of family and personal circumstances, I do give regularly every month. Because I am not living in full agreement with the membership agreement, I am technically being disobedient to it. This troubles me because of my convictions of tithing being non-mandatory. On the one hand, I want to honor my church and be in unity with it and on the other hand, I cannot because of these convictions. I believe fully that God has and is calling me and my family to stay at my church, for I am not in discord with any other issue with my church at this time.
So, do you have any thoughts on this?
March 14th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
T- No issue is one layered. There must be a reason you spent the time writing and studying this subject. Sorry but I just like to ask a lot of questions:)..not much fun. Where is your church? I might join you one Sunday.
Dr.- I am thankful you have answered these posed questions. The funny thing is that I agree with most of what you have written.
My thoughts…Churches are good charities to give your money to…just like poor people.
10% is the bare minimum I give away and I live below the poverty line. Gos asks us to be generous so I am.
Tithing is not about the church. It’s about your submission to God.
March 15th, 2007 at 6:18 am
WOOHOO TRAVEY MATEY! That’s some excellent teaching on the tithe, mate, and an understanding we hold to. You are extremely gifted in conveying scriptural truths–well done! -Jonno
March 15th, 2007 at 7:29 am
Dr Kelly knows all about the real tithe that God directed the Israelites perform. I agree with everything he has said.
In response to the comment about the widow’s gift – yes, it was a freewill offering but more importantly, the widow was tricked by religious leaders! There is a short essay on http://www.nomoretithing.org and two free 30 minute video lessons titled ‘ The Truth About the Widow’s Gift’ on http://www.inyourbible.com
March 15th, 2007 at 8:45 am
Hey, Babe. Me and Jo just read your entire post and we are so impressed with your mad skills. I have to say that this is one of the clearest dissertations you’ve ever written! Well done, well done.
Jo wants everyone in Care Group to read this now. 
I think you did an amazing job of getting to the root of the entire issue. If it’s all about giving food to the poor and the like, then we all (the church) really need to start discussing this… ’cause to me, the current status of the “tithe” in the modern church reeks of man-made regulations. Yuck.
March 15th, 2007 at 10:17 am
@ Domo: You said, “No issue is one layered. There must be a reason you spent the time writing and studying this subject. Sorry but I just like to ask a lot of questions:)..not much fun. Where is your church? I might join you one Sunday.”
Okay, when I saw you came here from the blog of another guy in my church, I started to assume you knew him/me/us. That was unfair; please forgive me.
I’m a member of Chesapeake Community Church in Joppa, MD. I actually began questioning the tithe during the “Understanding Chesapeake” pre-membership course. They had a unit on giving, but when I went and read the quoted verses in context, they weren’t saying what the unit said they were. I’ve been wrestling with it ever since.
You said, “Tithing is…about your submission to God.” But if what you’re calling a tithe isn’t Biblical, then it’s not a matter of submission to God — it’s instead submission to the traditions of men. That’s my problem here: what we call “tithing” is a manmade tradition.
@ Paul: I hear you, man—I’ll have an answer for you soon!
@ Jonno: Is it true that “tithing” isn’t really embraced much (by pastors or their flocks) down there in Aussieland?
@ Nicole: :smoochie:
March 15th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Nicole said..
“…the current status of the “tithe†in the modern church reeks of man-made regulations.”
Kneon sez…
It’s a business model, pure and simple — an admittedly shrewd one. And one that’s been around for centuries.
Any outsider looking in can see that most churches are using the tithe system as a means of funding the organization. To take spirituality of it it entirely… tithing is no different than, say, paying the cable bill. The cable company needs your monthly subscription to pay its costs. The church has become bloated and needs tithes to keep these massive operations running.
So how do you make sure the cable bill gets paid every month? Threaten to pull the plug if it’s not paid.
How do you make sure the tithes gets paid every month? Threaten God’s wrath, use guilt, shunning… fear. If that doesn’t work, take the multi-level marketing angle and promise an absurd return on investment.
Whatever works.
Hey, someone’s gotta pay for the pastor’s private jet.
Christianity is big business. Not that mankind would take something good and pure and totally bastardize it. No siree…
March 15th, 2007 at 11:13 am
More light reading…
http://www.bibleinsight.com/tithing.html
March 15th, 2007 at 11:50 am
I agree with your assessment here. I hope this truth comes out more in the years to come. i feel that the questions are starting to come in more and peoples minds. Some people go extreme and don’t want to give any money to God or the church, so that’s why we have to be careful how we approach this topic. Somehow we have to be strategic in how we strongly oppose the tithe mandate, but at the same time make sure we point out that the NT has a higher calling. I think you did a good job on this article. http://churchtithesandofferings.com
March 15th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Travis, I am very impressed with your ability to study and then relay this stuff, and I am excited to be able to discuss it. I am grateful to have a husband who has led me well and not just allowed us to settle for the status quo, but has earnestly sought out Gods word for how we are to live our lives from tithing to birth control. However I do want to say that I am honored to tithe to our pastors and am grateful for all they and their families have invested in us/our church. I guess that I appreciate the freedom to do what God is calling us to do with our money and not live under “the law”.
March 15th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
ps. This was my first blog post ever so you should feel very honored.
March 15th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Someone asked about the woman giving her two last “cents”. I’ll cut some portions of an exegetical paper I wrote a year ago on these passages. I won’t post the whole thing because it is A) too long and B) contains a good deal of Greek work which many won’t be able to view unless they have the right fonts (which I suspect this blogging software won’t support anyhow). Paul already linked to a couple of posts on my blog in the second comment in this thread.
The verses of Luke 21:1-4 come on the heels of Jesus warning those listening to him to avoid being prideful, which he contrasts with the generosity of the humble widow. Prior to this periscope, he had been teaching in the Temple, and had riled up the Sadducees by answering their questions in ways they were not expecting. They were hoping to trick him or trip him up, but he was able to thwart their plans. They were still afraid to attempt to attack him directly as there were many people there at the Temple sympathetic to Jesus.
This pericope falls in the pronouncement stories under the sub category of scholastic sayings. This is a scholastic saying because it is a short incident that focuses on some instructional or declarative saying of Jesus which provides an example and admonition for Jesus’ followers. Nolland agrees with this assessment in his commentary.
When comparing the Luke 21:1-4 pericope with the similar account in Mark 12:41-44 one notices that the Mark account has considerably more detail than does the Luke account in each verse except 44. This difference is attributed by some to the fact that Luke is believed to have used Mark as a source for the writing of his Gospel.
21:1. One of the key differences in the passage between Mark 12:41 and Luke 21:1 is the recording of the action of Jesus. Mark has Jesus sitting down opposite the treasury to watch people, where Luke only mentions that Jesus looks up. This passage comes on the heels of Jesus teaching the people and his disciples, so it makes some sense that he would sit down. It is believed that Jewish Rabbi’s would often sit down when they were looking to emphasize a point in their teaching, and that too would make sense in the context of what Jesus was trying to covey. Jesus was teaching in the Herodian Temple, a temple not built to glorify God, but a temple built to reconcile the Jews with their king. It is recorded that this temple was garishly decorated with ornate gold, and was constructed of the whitest stone available (though still not completed as Christ was teaching in it). The fact that Jesus looked up is reason to believe that he was teaching in the outermost portion of the temple, and looking into the Women’s court where the chests for gifts toward the expenses of services were located. He was likely sitting on the Eastern side of the Temple, near the Beautiful Gate. This is the temple that was destroyed in AD 70.
The definition of the word “gifts†does not add a whole lot to our understanding of the usage in this passage. It does support and reinforce the meaning implied here. An interesting thing of note is that these gifts are implied elsewhere as a means of support for the poor.
21:2. There is little difference in verse 2 and the Mark account, with the exception that Mark tells us that the two copper coins equal less than a penny in modern value. These two coins are regarded as the smallest possible forms of money that the woman could have put into the treasury, further illustrating the small amount of wealth of this widow. The KJV refers to these two coins as “mites†which may be confusing for the modern reader. Few people will know that a mite can be anything other than a bothersome parasite.
21:3. Again in this verse the Mark account contains greater detail than does Luke’s account. In the Mark account Jesus calls his disciples to himself. He does this to make sure they see what is going on, and understand the point he is trying to make. Luke leaves this off, perhaps just keeping the implied fact that the disciples are near Jesus from the earlier portion of the story.
Nolland makes a statement that I am not comfortable agreeing with when he says “This woman is storing up treasure for herself in heaven (cf. 12:33-34) .†When looking at what he is referencing, it is clear we are to not to put stock in our earthly possession and to store up for ourselves in Heaven instead. Where I disagree is that this is talking about those who have the means to sell what they have and to give to the needy, and Jesus makes it clear that is not the case with this woman (which is made more clear in Mark’s text than it is in Luke’s –see verse 4).
21:4. Luke’s account is very similar to the account given by Mark of this pericope. When examining the accounts in the NASB one sees that the Mark account makes it seem as if her act of giving was a greater sacrifice than does Luke. Mark not only says she has given all that she had to live on, but also all that she owned.
Luke is not saying that the rich were unable to give appropriately, just that those in this story were not giving appropriately. Just a couple of chapters prior to this account Luke records an example of a wealthy chief tax collector who experiences a change of heart through Jesus’ ministry and gives half of all he has to the poor (Luke 19:1-10) and makes reparations to those who he has wronged. Jesus is pointing out that the rich people in this passage are only giving out of their left over money, and that this giving is in no way affecting them or their lifestyle. The poor widow on the other hand is giving in a deep, passionate, and meaningful way and putting her trust in God to continue to provide for her needs in spite of her lack. This ties in well with the lessons taught in the book of Job of staying true to God in all circumstances.
Some would want to call this pericope a parable because it says that Jesus knew she was giving the last of what she had, and this knowledge could prove to be problematic unless it is a parable. I reject this categorization and believe Jesus had first hand knowledge or Jesus possessed special knowledge of they type he possessed in other occasions throughout the Gospels.
The NLT changes the “contributed out of their abundance†to “given a tiny part of their surplus.†This is a good change for those who might not initially grasp the deeper meaning of giving from abundance. It serves to properly frame the idea Jesus was trying to convey that this giving by the rich was having no significant impact upon their lives. The NLT again seems to borrow from the Mark account in this verse and closes with “[she] has given everything she has.†The KJV uses the word penury to describe the poorness out of which the widow was giving. Their choice of this word is not helpful in the modern church, as few will know the meaning of that word.
It is clear from the other uses of the word “surplus†in the New Testament that the implication is that the rich are only giving out of what is left over, out of their excess.
There is an interesting pattern of contrast between what ancient texts record for the proper manner in which to treat the poor and the rich in this passage. In Joseph and Aseneth giving to the poor is seen as an act of repentance. In Pseudo-Phocylides giving to the poor is a form of mercy. Pseudo-Phocylides also informs that those with the means are called to care for the poor. In Sibylline Oracles giving to the poor is seen as a way to lead people to God. Sibylline Oracles also warns that we are called to not mock or abuse the poor, to treat them with mercy. In the Testament of Job a patter of giving to the poor is established, as well as a long term plan to keep giving to them is put into motion. Testament of Job also speaks about helping others learn to give to the poor. In another section of the Testament of Job the author writes on helping others who don’t have enough to give to the poor to instead serve the poor. In 2 Enoch, Enoch admonishes his sons to extend their hands to the poor often and to give them some of the fruit of their works. The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs is rich with info on how to treat the poor. It tells that giving to the poor is used as evidence of a sinless life. It also says in another area that when giving to the poor is not possible because of your own lack, then one should walk with the poor in sympathy. The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs also teaches that dieing poor for the Lord’s sake gains a person riches in eternity. In Psalm of Solomon God is the hope of the poor. Later in that same book God is not only the hope of the poor, but God is also the refuge of the poor. When we compare these Jewish author’s thoughts on how to properly treat the poor, we see a night and day difference with the rich leaders in Luke 21:1-4. What we see Jesus teaching falls exactly in line with these other references on how to treat the poor. This also follows the pattern of Jesus calling out the religious leaders of his day for their actions, and how they with their man made rules and regulations had made people (Matt 23:15) worse than when they started.
On this point I would again disagree with Wright’s assessment that Jesus is using this story to show his disapproval of the widow’s gift. Wright seems to be missing the larger meaning that I have been examining in this paper, and attributes this pericope to being an ordinary saying by Jesus. I am also not willing to limit Jesus’ pointing out this example of sacrificial giving to it’s immediate context as Wright suggests. I think that Jesus had in mind his coming sacrifice, and was fully aware of the parallels of that to the widow and how that contrasts with the rich and the religious leaders of his day.
This passage falls as the final recorded occurrence of Jesus’ public ministry, except his trial and crucifixion. This is also the last time Jesus visits the Temple in his Earthly ministry. On the heels of this passage, Jesus begins to tell of the coming destruction of the Temple as well of Jerusalem.
Sermon Outline
Luke 21:1-4
1. Title: How church leaders should handle money.
2. Exegetical Idea: Jesus gives a warning to us that we need to be careful in how we as a church take in and handle money.
3. Homiletical Idea: This pericope is warning us about how the church should not burden the poor to finance itself.
4. What do I want to accomplish: Through this message, I intend to cause people to examine how they think the American church (and our church in particular) should function in relation to the world wide church.
5. Introduction – Share information about giving, wealth and consumption in the USA and abroad.
Invite congregation to open Bibles to Luke 21:1-4 and follow along (read pericope).
Give modern examples of how we might be considered similar to the rich people.
-Weekly news magazines and newspapers are abundantly filled with these types.
Give modern examples of people who might be considered similar to the poor widow.
-Noah’s story of being a missionary (my wife’s cousin), perhaps a video from Noah.
Examine sacrificial giving beyond just finances, and the places in the world of the greatest need.
Examine how this applies on a personal level (ref. Acts 2 church).
Challenge people to think about how they can have a Kingdom impact by making changes in their giving habits.
Video from our missionaries in China or Africa.
Conclude with prayer.
Take offering.
March 15th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
I wholeheartedly agree that we should be giving to the poor. I know that we (as Christians) most likely do not give enough, including most local churches.
When you decide to attend a church you have decided to: attend functions, attend meetings on premesis, utilize childcare, receive pastoral counseling, participate in Sunday mornings and recieve the word of the Lord from our pastors. With my saying that, I’m wondering why you have decided to continue going to our church when you clearly do not agree with our tithing practices.
(I’m having trouble copying and pasting your comments and conclusions at the very end, so I’ll be general.) When we give our 10% in tithing we TRUST IN THE LORD that our tithing is going to a place that honors and blesses the Lord. Do you really think it’s going to the pastors? The pastors that make between 30-40K per year? Is it going to their 1995 vehicles that they drive around? Their homes? Their wardrobes? We all know the answer to that. To even type something or assume that our pastors are receiving that tithe as their income is absurd. If you’re not saying that, then it needs to be rephrased. If you’re saying it’s going to the church then it’s suddenly missing because we need to pave our gravel lot and invest in a lot more amenities!
If you think that Biblically we shouldn’t be giving our tithes to any establishment, I wouldn’t think that you would want to participate in worship and hear teachings in that establishment. Am I wrong? I mean, if you don’t agree then why stay?
I definitely agree that we should be giving to more in need and I thank you for giving me a healthy reality check in that department. I’m just confused as to why you attend the church but feel that tithing to the church is not Biblical?
You wouldn’t be contradicting yourself (in my opinion) if you had church in your basement, or something….wait, then if you had church in the basement, you’d have to have childcare, and then improve parking…what about extra seating? Oh! You’re going to need money. Hmm..where to find that money…then, things get really hard for you because maybe you’re pastoring so much, giving counsel, teaching Bible Study then you don’t have time for your job anymore away from home. You’re a full time pastor serving others with your time but you can’t feed your family….I guess you’ll just have to hope that you have a small congregation that supports what the Lord is doing through you in that church you have established. You hope that when they write that check they trust that the Lord will help you to appropriate that money in a way that honors him.
I say we tithe and give to the poor. Is that too hard?
I really don’t want to offend and I enjoy discussing these kinds of things. It’s all in good fun (for me anyway!)
March 15th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
[...] Â http://travis.webseitler.com/2007/03/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-tithe.html#comments [...]
March 15th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
*shrugs shoulders* The pastor that married us had a day job. I think he called it his “tentmaking gig.”
Just sayin’ …
March 15th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Ok, so my husband read what I typed and was worried that I sounded like I had an attitude or was being mean. I really, really wasn’t, promise! I just completely don’t understand and I guess that’s ok, I really don’t have to. Please forgive me if I sounded rude, I truly didn’t want to. I don’t have to say it, but I love me a good debate.
March 15th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Not a problem, Beth!
I often come across as smarmy. Believe me, in real life… well, I’m worse, actually.
(that was a joke!)
As long as this thread continues along without invoking Godwin’s Law, we ought to be alright.
March 15th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Hey Beth, thanks for joining in!
Don’t worry – you’re not offending me.
Before dealing with the actual money issues you brought up, I want to touch on what you said “attending a church” entails. See, you seem to be working from a “church as social club” model. With two exceptions (“receive pastoral counseling,” “receive the word of the Lord from our pastors”) all of the things you described are add-ons with no Scriptural basis. This doesn’t mean they’re evil; just that they’re not what church is about.
When I decide to attend a church, I’m deciding to:
– bind myself to the believers in that congregation;
– meet with those believers for singing, teaching, edification and prayer;
– seek the Spiritual and physical good of those believers;
– share in communion;
– seek to work together with those believers in reaching the lost around us;
– receive counsel and correction from any Godly members of the congregation.
So here’s the thing: I’m not with Chesapeake for the sermons (though they can be real winners sometimes). I’m with Chesapeake for God’s people there. I care about the other folks in this congregation, and I’m not going to abandon them just because I disagree with the men in the leadership about a few things.
Now, as far as the tithe supporting the leadership…
– First, in the Old Testament the tithe was never used for building or maintenance (this includes “improved parking”). Israel’s Temple in Jerusalem was fully funded through freewill offerings. If Christians can’t match that voluntary generosity, we
shouldshouldn’t try to make up for it by twisting God’s Word into a new “law” for them to follow. (EDIT: Whoops!)– Second, I wasn’t trying to make this about Chesapeake. Is it related? Sure. But I was trying to avoid “making it personal” like that.
– Third, I have a copy of Chesapeake’s 2006 financial statements, so I’m aware of what came in and where it went.
And hey: if you or anyone else wants to put money in the offering plate, go for it… just know that it’s not a Biblical tithe, and the Biblical tithe isn’t required for anyone but the Jewish residents of Old Testament Israel. So you may be giving the pastors 10% or more of your gross income, but that’s not a tithe God commanded anywhere in Scripture.
March 15th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
I do understand where you are coming from and it does spark my interest. It encourages Chad and I to study it more and make clear decisions about where our money is going.
I appreciate your insight, I just don’t agree
March 15th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
Travis, unfortunately it’s not true that Aussies are non-tithers. From my experience though, tithing seems to be common in the church where the pastor has big ambitions, and where the pastor is a weak theologian. Our little AOG church in NSW was different from 99.9% of AOG churches in that we were Calvinistic non-tithers. Of course, by teaching heresy, AOG tried to shut us down! Old denominations like the Church of England don’t seem to care for it, which is a breath of fresh air for us at the moment.
I’d love to hear if you approach your church leadership with this teaching.
March 15th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Travis, I deleted my post on the blog, because I didn’t want you to feel like I was making you a spectacle! You are doing a good thing by starting these discussions
March 15th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Beth, you didn’t have to do that! I was trying to be ironic with my comment there. :/ Sorry if you got the wrong idea—I actually appreciated the link!
March 20th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
[...] interesting perspective on tithing, which I’m posting because it’s thought-provoking. (I.e. not because I [...]
March 26th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
[...] got a comment on my last post “Money Talks” that I sincerely apreciate. Thanks for reading and for [...]
March 27th, 2007 at 8:52 am
In regards to your reference to Mal 3: All statements are general!!
Sounds like you were/are a theogy student… awesome
The thing about exegesis is that there are a gamit of thing that must be taken into consideration…
One that didnt seem to be evident in yours is culture… In those times income was foods lands and that sort of things, people wealth was determined by how much food they had in the storehouse… just because that culture doesnt apply to us doesnt mean the principle doesnt apply… Because of Christ and our acceptance of Him we store our treasures up in heaven… the physical representation of that storehouse is the church (and i dont mean the building) its biblical….
and even if it wasnt, is it not a good practice, does the system still not serve the cause of Christ… I can hear someone now saying, well I’ll just give an offering…. well if thats what you want to call it, go ahead but do it consistently, so that the church can function because it takes money….
“well God is God and He can provide the church with the resources it needs”… He has… YOU and ME
One last point, Is God the God of your wallet? Then give the 10% its His anyway….
Thanks, God Bless
Matt
March 27th, 2007 at 9:55 am
@ Matt: I actually wrote a comment at “The Cultured Church” (see the Pingback below) which covered much of what you’ve brought up… so I’ll just copy parts of it here and add a bit.
“One that didnt seem to be evident in yours is culture… In those times income was foods lands and that sort of things”
There are numerous uses of precious metals as money before, in, and after the giving of the Law (for example… Abraham: “Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold“; Moses: “And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe… then you shall turn it into money… and spend the money for whatever you desire“; Nehemiah: “The former governors [of Jerusalem] who were before me laid heavy burdens on the people and took from them for their daily ration forty shekels of silver.“). In fact, there’s 175 references to silver alone in the chronological books of the OT (Genesis to Nehemiah). It’s simply deceitful to imply that money was scarce or non-existent in these times (especially as Nehemiah’s predecessors expected money from the “commonfolk” of Jerusalem). Yet even Nehemiah (only 450-490 years before Jesus’ Incarnation) spoke of the tithe as “the tithes of grain, wine, and oil, which were given by commandment to the Levites, singers, and gatekeepers” (Nehemiah 13:5).
“Because of Christ and our acceptance of Him we store our treasures up in heaven…”
Then we should look at whether Jesus told us what it looks like to “store up your treasure in heaven”… and if he did, then how did he say we are to do that?
“Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.” — Luke 12:33 (ESV)
Thanks for joining in, Matt. There’s so many other things that are bound up in this issue, and you’ve helped me address a few more of those things.
March 27th, 2007 at 10:56 am
One argument to support non-food tithing is that money was not universally available and barter from food must have been used for most transactions. This argument is not biblical. Genesis alone contains “money†in 32 texts and the word occurs 44 times before the tithe is first mentioned in Leviticus 27. The word shekel also appears often from Genesis to Deuteronomy.
In fact many centuries before Israel entered Canaan and began tithing food from God’s Holy Land money was an essential everyday item. For example money in the form of silver shekels paid for slaves (Gen 17:12 ); land (Gen 23:9 ); freedom (Ex 23:11); court fines (Ex 21 all; 22 all); sanctuary dues (Ex 30:12 ); vows (Lev 27:3-7); poll taxes (Num 3:47 ), alcoholic drinks (Deu 14:26) and marriage dowries (Deu 22:29).
According to Genesis 47:15-17 food was used for barter only after money had been spent. Banking and usury laws exist in God’s Word in Leviticus even before tithing. Therefore the argument that money was not prevalent enough for everyday use is false. Yet the tithe contents never include money from non-food products and trades.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Hi, I saw where you are talking about money on the The Good Report. A friend of my has a Google Group. The web site is http://groups.google.com/group/people-for-christ?hl=en
You might want to go to that and talk about money.
Tom
March 27th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
I might, but would there be any point? There’s only two members, and there’s been no activity at all this month.
March 27th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Well, It is new and they trying to get more people to join, but they has not. Just a thought.
Tom
March 28th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
There is Activity now this month.
April 12th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
You’ve made some really good points and have us thinking…I feel badly for overreacting with my comments and would like to retract them, but, your responses and everyone else’s were very good so I don’t want to delete my comment. But I do want to say that I came across as very legalistic and judgmental and I’m not that way and don’t want to be! Keep on keepin’ on
April 13th, 2007 at 10:18 am
Thanks Beth! For what it’s worth, I think maybe once or twice in my life
I’ve expressed everything you just said you felt your comment might sound like–so even if that was your heart when you wrote it, who am I to hold that against you?
Regardless of how your comment sounded, I think God definitely used it to refine the discussion and bring out some more points and issues I failed to address in the initial post. (He’s good at doing things like that!) So thanks for speaking up, and please continue to do so!
April 17th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
[...] got me thinking… again. It all seems so clear, and what he’s saying seems to meld with other things I’ve been harping on of late. It seems to match up with different things God’s put in front of [...]
April 26th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
[...] What Does the Bible Say About the Tithe?Hint: It’s not what most pastors and radio teachers are telling you… [...]
April 29th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
I just followed this link from another one of your blogs. This was a good read thanks for sharing your word. I am always interested in hearing what other people have to say about the tithe.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:49 am
forgive me but I’ve been stalking this site a bit the last few days. I ran across it while googling “haedcoverings blog” and then I realized you live in Maryland too.. and my husband, kids and I have been church shopping so I wanted ot read about your church… and your wife’s headcovering (oh how nice it would be to a have a friend who wore a head covering too!)
anyhow I’ve really enjoyed my visit and I will certainly be back.
(btw I have a blog I update frequently but i didn’t leave that here b/c I dont like to announce it to all of Maryland. but of course if you wanted to visit let me know.)
August 17th, 2007 at 9:05 am
[...] conversation with my mom about tithes and how much our district officials get paid. Then I read this post by Travis Seitler. He has done research on tithing. His post shook me. I’ve grown up with the [...]
August 17th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Travis, I love this post. At first I thought you were crazy! But I think I agree with you now. Thanks for a challenging read. I wrote a post in response. Oh! I see you’ve already got the Pingback!
August 17th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Travis-
I have totally struggled with this one, and 3 years ago was blessed to have Mark Lauterbach from the San Diego Church cover the subject with a very similar take during my new-members class.
When I have tried to broach this subject with leaders and people I DEEPLY respect in our church, I have struggled to expressing my words and thoughts in a way as adequately as you have here.
I’m lucky that my Dad’s a strong believer, and has been incredible helpful on this topic during the course of my walk. I’m lucky that my former church helped me sort things out and examine the gospel for what the gospel says, and not to swallow every word told to me…
Thanks for the approaching a subject that most flee from.
PS. I’m TOTALLY ecstatic that you have a blog that mentions my former pastor, Mark Lauterbach. I was GREATLY blessed to get to spend 2 1/2 years with Sunday Messages from him. I read his blog all of the time. His wife is equally amazing and such a superb example as well! (They met at Princeton! They’re like the cutest smarty-pants couple ever!)
Melanie
August 17th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Adding too! Which in itself is exactly what gets the organized Church machine introuble. (thats anouther story) I have looked at the tithe for several years now and you are right on the money (:. IF we as Christians look around us every day. Buy a soda for someone or clothes for someone , or help a person in need with repairs or supply the items for repairs, or buy them food or make a meal for someone down and out or layed up. Have a group over for dinner, to share in God’s love. Support transportation for someone who could not afford it. I think we would see we spend way more than the 10% in you want to make it monitary. On a second note I am very greatful I don’t have to stand befroe God and answer to “Look and see the beautiful building, Landscaping and fellow ship hall etc. that we use maybe twice a week and we have diligently spent 80% of the collected Christian dollars to pay for this!” 10% tithe is one thing, 80 cents on the dollar to suport a physicall structure that dosen’t even house anyone is still a really big question in my mind?
August 17th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Is there any part of the Big Machine, (Large Church Organizations) with the guts to recogonize publicly this plain truth? I think most folks don’t look beyond the God Robber verse. If you go back before that about Malachi 2-2 it’s clearly shows that this command is to the high Priests … not all of us.
GREAT GREAT WORK!!!
September 7th, 2007 at 1:49 am
Thanks for this article. I wholeheartedly agree that Scripture does not mandate a tithe. My friend Tim, my old pastor, wrote a short article on the subject that people might find interesting.
September 23rd, 2007 at 6:55 am
greetings. can i share my view about tithes? why would God consigned Abraham to pay his tenth? and why tenth? this is the questions that until now i haven’t recieved an answer satisfactorily. in my own understanding of the Bible the word tenth signify the existence of a government. Jesus speaks about “Thy Kingdom come Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” when we deny this little but important matter of his law then we deny the existence of his kingdom. when he answered his accusers “Give to ceasar to ceasar and God to Gods” he used only a singular verb “Give” to both subjects. and it denotes the same meaning likewise to others. money is not a topic here but rather his commandments on how are we going to fullfil it.
wils
September 23rd, 2007 at 9:21 am
Welcome, Willis!
First, I would like to point out that the scriptures nowhere say that Abraham’s single recorded “tithe” (of war spoils, see Genesis 14) was anything but voluntary.
Second, Abraham gave the remaining 90% to the king of Sodom–thus he kept nothing for himself, and “blessed” a wicked pagan king nine times more than he blessed the priest Melchizedek.
Third, when the Law was given to Moses, the required contribution of war spoils was not considered a “tithe” at all. In fact, not only was the required amount not 10%, it was far less: according to Numbers 31, it was 1 out of every 500 (0.2%). Thus, the only similarity between Abraham’s “tithe” and Moses’ “tithes” are the percentage involved (10%). Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek bears no other resemblance to the tithes proscribed in the Law.
And finally, did Jesus ever give any indication that giving to “leaders” was giving to Him? Every time He speaks of giving something to Him or doing something for Him by proxy, it is accomplished by giving to His poor and persecuted. Giving to Jesus is always summarized as “give to the needy.“
September 25th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
first of all thank you for your time in answering my commentary. second, the genesis book is only a summarisation of things in the life of Adam to Abraham. Abraham lived and died at the age of 120. that lenght of time did not reflect it in detail in this book. like for example. we read only in Genesis the seven kinds of clean animals and 2 kinds of uncleaned animals loaded in the Noahs Ark. does the Genesis tell which animal is cleaned and uncleaned? of all the five books of Moises only Leviticus and Deuteronomy explained it in detail. the tenth Abraham gave remain puzzled to me,where did he base that TEN PERCENT (10%)calculation? it should have been a freewill offering in a first place, shouldn’t he?
September 25th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
But what I’m saying, Willis, is this: Moses writes in Genesis that Abraham gave a 10% war spoils offering (1 of every 10), and in Numbers he writes that God requires a 0.2% war spoils offering (1 of every 500). So there is no way at all that Abraham’s offering to Melchizedek can be considered the same thing as Israel’s tithes to the Levites.
I believe you’re confusing a measurement with a type of offering (“tithe” literally and only means “tenth” or “ten percent”).
To illustrate: if I were to tell you that I traveled two miles this morning, this in no way implies (let alone requires the interpretation) that I had fulfilled Jesus’ command to walk two miles with the man who forces you to walk one with him. In both cases, a unit of measurement is referred… but the measurement is only a part of the command.
So what I’m saying is that Abraham’s ten-percent is a different beast than any of Israel’s three ten-percents.
September 25th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
im sorry if theres a mistake in my questions. forget about tithes. what i really want to know where did Abraham based his CALCULATION OF TEN PERCENT? its very important because some of my friend is asking the same thing to me I hope you understand now. there has to be an origin of everything and i want a concrete fact base in the Bible only.
September 25th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
According solely to the Bible, Abraham didn’t base his calculation on anything.
September 25th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Abraham got his motivation to tithe spoils of war from pagan Arab tradition. He did not freely give anything. Do some personal research. Tithing, like child sacrifices and temple prostitution, was widespread among pagans of Abraham’s time. In fact 80% of commentaries admit this in their discussion of 14:21 (not 14:20) where they say the 90% was controlled by apgan Arab custom. Under the Mosaic Law Abraham would have been requred to share the spoils with all of his 318 men per Numbers 31. This is covered in great detail in my book, Should the Church Teach Tithing with the same web site name.
September 25th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
travis, you know you’re the man who can save me on this matter. and im sinking slowly in the sand because of enormous intelligent people that sorrounds me asking intelligent question. you know if you were in my position i would rather close my eyes and pray that i shouldn’t have been here. please.. please.. please.. WHERE DID ABRAHAM BASE HIS 10 PERCENT CALCULATION (10%) ? my faith in you is begining to colapse so hurry.
September 25th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Willis,
In Genesis 14, Abram re-takes the property of Sodom, Gomorrah and a few other kingdoms from a band of kingdoms which had attacked them. In verse 20, he specifically returns the people and property of Melchizedek’s kingdom to him.
That’s all this is here. Abram went after those armies to rescue his nephew Lot, and returned the “other spoils” to Melchizedek and the other kings who had been attacked when Lot was captured.
September 25th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Abraham is the father of Faith accordingly. and faith without work is dead. if Abraham is the Father of the Israelites? then they should obey the same commandments given to Abraham. correct? does God imposes 2 kinds of financing laws? you see when you explain the meaning of covenant it will give you only two matters: the promise and the commandmends. if God had required the Israelites to tithe therefore Abraham requires also to tithe? if its not then he would not have become their Father. observe and read what the Aposte Paul illustrate in Romans 11:17. the church wasn’t built on any ground but to foundation of the prophetes. if the nourishment that comes from the root of the tree and goes on every branch? what i mean the law which has been passed from Israel be handed down also to us? i know you are the father of your children, tell me do you impose 2 different system in your family?
September 25th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Willis, I would have two different systems in place for my children, if some were minors and others were adults! And that’s precisely what Paul speaks of in his letter to the Galatians:
We are not bound at all by the Law given to Moses at Sinai. The Law points to Christ, and we are bound to Christ. But the Law of Moses is, at best, only a poor caricature of the Law of Love.
September 25th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Tell me which of the great examples fo the “father of fatith” do you follow.
(1) Lie about your wife being your sister to both Pharaoh and Abimelech.
(2) Tihte pagan spoils of war.
(3) Do not tithe your own propeerty.
(4) Give th 90% to the KIng of Sodom or his equivalent today.
(5) Tithe your soldiers portion also.
When we say that Abraham was the “father of faith” we are ONLY referring to his faith response to God’s covenant promises. We are not referring to everythign he did! Why is that so hard to understand?
If being educated means one is twisting the scriptures then you need to realize that the two most educated people in the Bible were Moses and Paul.
If Abraham’s tithe was an example of faith then why did not Moses refer to it? Why did the writer of Hebrews only use it to prove the superiority of Melchzedek?
Thsoe who receive tithes today do it under a false definition. Why do they not forfeit land and inheritance rightts? Why do they not pay the first whole tithe to the modern Levites (ushers, deacons, choir, maintenance men, builders)? The whole system is a scam and a scandal. NONE of the OT tithign laws are followed today. Period.
September 25th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
In Galatians 3:29 “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham seed according to the promise.” Is the tithing law had been a part of the promise? you see the whole people who were involved in the covenat of God were also the same people will be ressurected and become the begotten sons of God. the same spiritual sons of God will inherite the kingdom of God in which the tithing requires in his administration. can those spiritual son of God who belong to the old covenant tithe their increase and those belong to the new covenant will give freewill? did Jesus say “a house with two different foundations will fall”? you see im a father of a son and a dauther. i never impose 2 system in my family. it will create jelousy towards the other. thats what i want to explain.
September 25th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Russel, let me correct you on that page 67. you see there is no basis in the bible that the tenth was the result of pagan influence. otherwise God will not permit it please read 1 corinthian 10:21 “you cannot drink the cup of the Lords table and the table of the demons. are we trying to arouse lords jelous? and also your brother travis insist that it is not a tithe recorded in Genesis. who among you is correct?
September 25th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
“i never impose 2 system in my family. it will create jelousy towards the other.”
Willis, you are displaying an ignorance of the Scriptures, because Paul explicitly says in Romans 11:11, “…salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.“ God has no problem arousing Israel’s jealousy through his dealings with us Gentiles.
God says in Psalm 50:21, “[Y]ou thought I was altogether like you. But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face.” Do not make the mistake of thinking that God is opposed to something simply because you are.
September 25th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Willis
While it is true that “everything the Bible teaches it true” it is not true that “truth can only be found in the Bible”! Just becasue something is not found in the Bible does not make it not true. Go to your local public library and look up “tithing” in ancient religions. Don’t just jump to conclusions when somebody disagrees with you. Do your own investigative research!
You falsely assume that God would not permit a pagan custom to be adapted for truth. Pagan tithes from spoils of war are in no way whatseover comparable to Biblical tithes from God’s people inside His holy land. The only thing they have in comon is the word “tithe.”
Babylonian law forbade many of the thigns the Ten Commandments forbid. Is that wrong for the same reason?
Objection: How can Melchizedek be a type of Christ if he was not a relative of Shem or Abraham and was a Canaanite?
The Bible takes many terms and names which have negative meanings and turns them into very positive spiritual meanings. (1) Jerusalem had its Semitic Canaanite name long before the Israelites captured it and “Jerusalem†did not originally refer to David’s city of peace. (2) The Semitic Canaanite Jebusites who ruled in Jerusalem for 1000 years after Abraham called their pagan fort, Mount Zion (2 Sam. 5:7). Only later did “Mount Zion†become a very holy term for both Israelites and Christians. (3) The brass serpent which Moses made in Numbers 21:8, 9 to remind Israel of its rebellion became a symbol of God’s healing. (4) In Habakkuk the Babylonian army is depicted as God’s army which will punish Israel. (5) The pagan King Cyrus of Persia is called “my shepherd†in Isaiah 44:28 because God used him to deliver Israel. (6) The cross of Jesus was changed from a symbol of shame and sin into a symbol of victory and life in Hebrews 12:2. (7) Since the vowel markings were not added to the Hebrew language until many centuries after Christ, the triad of MLK in the Canaanite language most often referred o MoLoK (see Amos 5:26 in Hebrew). The title, Abi-melech, the Philistine king of Gerar whom Abraham served in Genesis 20:2 probably means “my father is Molok.â€
September 25th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
but that is God given jealousy like in Exodus a jealouse God. the jealousy that i meant by is a human nature type and it has nothing to do with the spiritual one. my daugther has a human nature like we do. i set an example of two different system in my family and contrary to your belief it creates chaos. you see God is not a respecter of persons. whether if you are jew or not a jew if you sinned then you are subjected to penalty. i want you to know that God had shown to his people the benefits of his law equally. How many people were condemned to death because of breaking the law. and yet there is an instance that Jesus said life is more important than anything else. so the law of God is above them all. and he is a dead serious about it. tithes, if you fail to fullfil it will break the 7th commandment of God “THOU SHALT NOT STEAL” this commandment, the moment you set aside will eventually break the whole aspect of the Laws of God. if you take out of this important matter of this law just remember the blood of those people who were condemned for not obeying it. end.
see you next time and may God bless you. thank you
September 26th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
mr. Russel the things you’ve mention on page 76 is correct and i have no objection to that. “Just becasue something is not found in the Bible does not make it not true.” suppose if i ask that teaching about tithe is not found in the bible does not mean is not there. take for example in Mathew 27:9 what was spoken by Jeramiah the prophet was fulfilled they took the 30 pisces of silver ….to buy a potters field. well i should say that there was no written record in jeramiah that he prophesied the same thing.
some teachings of christ also wasn’t recorded as it was testified by John in 21:25 “Jesus did many other things as well. If everyone of them were written down i supposed that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” Did Jesus teach that the tithing law of God is no longer in effect? would you care to speak to me when itis not written does not mean its not there. in Hebrew 7:6 This man, however did not trace his descent to Levi: yet he collected the tenth from Abraham…
it is very evident that it can be found in the new testament and contrary to your unbiblical reference that he was influenced by the pagan arabs. and also contrary to mr travis that he did not know where did he base his calculation of 10 % of his spoils.
the important things of these discussions is that God is the owner of the tithing laws. and even the 10 commandments in the book of Exodus. Moises is only the mediator between God and Israel. so if we think that God is King therefore I might say those decrees are considered a Royal Laws.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Willis:
“Moises is only the mediator between God and Israel.”
NO. “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man—not Moses!
And look again at Hebrews chapter 6: “and to him [Melchizedek] Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything.” Abraham chose the amount (that’s what “apportion” means—he chose to set aside this portion). And look at verse 5: “And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers.“ The author of this epistle is speaking to Christians of the tithes as a Jewish practice, not a Jewish/Christian practice. He speaks of something “they” (not “we”) do.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
I’m sorry, I keep finding more in that chapter of Hebrews to share with you, Willis: “Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.“ (vv.11-12)
It’s perfectly clear: the Law of Moses has been superseded! Hebrews 8:7-13 says this: “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: ‘The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah….’ By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.”
The 10 commandments are obsolete. The 613 Mitzvot are obsolete. Useless. Old. Unable to accomplish anything worth accomplishing. You are wasting your time trying to adhere to a code God judged “obsolete” thousands of years ago.
September 27th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
mr. Travis if the verses you’ve shown me will persuade me to your belief then you’re probably wrong. the covenant HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COMMANDMENT OF GOD. see for yourself in a dictionary and make argue about it. the covenant is like a contract ok? we need to know the element that contains in the old covenant. first, God who is the first party and then the people, Israelites which is second party. second, Gods commandment and his promises and then the peoples initiative. ok? what is the promise given to Abraham (genesis 22:17) there are two fold: one is material blessings and then the spiritual blessings. this verse needs a wisdom to understand. what is commandment of God? certainly the 10 point written in (exodus 20) now turn to Deuteronomy 8 ” be carefull to obey my command…so that you may live and increase…and posesse the land that the Lord promised promise to your forefather” you see how the covenant works it has nothing to do with the commandment. Moise is the mediator of the old cov. correct me on this if you fail to get what my point is. now what was Apostle Paul stated in Hebrew. “Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.“ (vv.11-12) what law is he talking about? take a look a second time and read to me Hebrew chapter 9 and 10 indicates the animal sacifice year after year done by a priest this is part of the old cov. while the new cov. the body of christ is sacrificial lamb in place of animal sacrifice. the law which is stated formerly concerns only the animal sacrifices for the reminder of sins doing it yearly. while in the new cov. only one time sacrifice has been done thru the body of christ. Paul stated that it is no longer need to everyone to go to the altar and sacrifice yearly because the blood of christ covers all of the sins. Hebrew 10:4 “because it is impossible for the blood of bulls…to take away sins.” verse 9. “he set aside the first ( meaning animal sacrifice) to establish the second (christ sacrifice) now in 1 John 3:4 sin is the transgressions of the law. what law is he taking about? 2 John 4″ Iam not writing you a new command but the one we HAVE HAD FROM THE BEGINING” now the question is why would Jesus had to sacrifice his body for the remission of sin if he will remove the ten comm.? the ten comm. according to Jame is like a mirror that will show your sins. think for a moment and use your logic. if you remove the law or the mirror why there is a need of christ body to clean our sins? which of these element are possible to be bloted out the Comm. of God or the Sin. it is a common for a lady to see her face in the mirror and found dirt on her face. how do you expect her to clean her face? to remove the mirror or to wash her face with soap? it would be a silly to remove the mirror. yes! you are wasting your time in giving me all the verses because your heart is very hard and you wont be able to bend my belief not until you convince me “if there is verse that Jesus teach on removing the tithing laws of God directly from his mouth” then i would believe you. if not you are just fooling yourself and your followers. in the first place Jesus did not mean to build his church and create his own laws. he went to the synogoge to teach as his custom was. then what promp him to have his own church? simply he was rejected by the elders. if his testimony has been accepted by the authority then there would be no argument at all cos he will be the leader with the norms and laws abided. try to study on that subject i want to hear it from you. wils
September 27th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
mr. travis when i studied all of your comments and i found that you did not understand what the covenant is. is the covenant a commandment of God? i want to be pranked with you. for the benefit of the readers you yourselves by your initiative to look at the dictionary the meaning of cov. and tell to mr. Travis if its a commandment of God. the truth is IT’S NOT! here is the meaning:A covenant, in its most general sense, is a solemn promise to do or not do something specified.
More specifically, a covenant, in contrast to a contract, is a one-way agreement whereby the covenantor is the only party bound by the promise. A covenant may have conditions and prerequisites that qualify the undertaking, including the actions of second or third parties, but there is no inherent agreement by such other parties to fulfil those requirements. Consequentially, the only party that can break a covenant is the covenantor.” you see the wasn’t mentioned and to be sure on that. the first party is God, the second party is the people. the condition to receive the promise is by obey on his commandment. ok. study first the genesis and exodus.
what was apostle paul mentioned in his book? Hebrews 8:7-13 says this: “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: ‘The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah….’ By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.â€
you dont understand what you want to clarify here. the first one that is already absolete is the animal sacifices done year after year. for the remission of sins. the second one that had already been established is the body of Christ. (Heb 9:28) he sacrificed himself in place of the animals blood (Heb 10:4)
so where is the commandment of God there? the law in which paul mentioned had something to do with blood for the forgiveness of sins. “sin is the transgression of the law” 1 John 3:4 the 10 comm. of God is only like a mirror that reveals if you sin (in the book of James) now we need some wisdom here. if christ intended to remove the law of God as what you want to emphasize? then there would be no sin to be clean at all. if the lady look on the mirror and found the dirt on her face would she remove the mirror to clean her face? sound silly isnt? in fact Jesus is also who gave the commandment in time of exodus. (John 1:1) the word “WORD” in capitalized is a spokesman. for he is a spokesman of God. how do you see a person who gave his laws and then the same person who will remove it? God is not a man that can change his mind. he remove only the penalty of sin for all of us are destined to DIE! (John 3:16) so its true he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it (Mat 5:17) in fact Jesus did not mean to build his own church with his own laws. he went to teach in the synagouge as his custom was.(Luke 4:16) then what prompt him to build the church? its because he was rejected! by the elders. think for a moment if the elders of synagouge accepts his message then you will see Jesus as their leader with the norms and laws of old abided. now we go back to the tithe system. is there a single verse in the bible that state Jesus teach the abolishment of the tithing laws directly from his mouth? if its not then where did you base your doctrins? -wils
September 27th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Willis,
You silly guy! You would have me look up in a dictionary something that’s clearly defined within the scriptures?
“And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.” — Deuteronomy 4:13 (ESV)
The Old Covenant is the Ten Commandments… the Bible tells me so.
September 27th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Willis wrote “it is very evident that it can be found in the new testament and contrary to your unbiblical reference that he was influenced by the pagan arabs.”
I am waiting for this “very evident” evidence. Still waiting. Still waiting.
Under the Law, in Numbers 31 the spoils went to all of the soldiers who paid only 1% as tithe. Sincc that was not the case in Geneis 14, then we must conclude that he was being controlled by a different set of customs.
September 27th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
please do not literalize everything. the word that i am speaking to you was base on others mind too. you see the commandment of God has been put into effect thru the covenant that is why if you break one of the commandment you are guilty of breaking them all! thats the power of covenant when it is put into use. still the same thing give me the verse now that state Jesus teach the abolishment of the tithing law of God
September 27th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
here is the evidence that Jesus never abolish the commandment of God (Mathew 5:17)
September 27th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
in Hebrew 7:6 This man, however did not trace his descent to Levi: yet he collected the tenth from Abraham…heres more
September 27th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
here is one.. if the law of God wasnt under the covenant? why would the people force themselves to obey him? God knows that the Israelite were stuborned so he device a plan to have his commandment be made under the covenant. simple.
September 27th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Willis, you’re ignoring the Scriptures. In Exodus 19:5, God tells Moses to say to the people, “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant….” The obligations of this covenant were Israel’s to keep.
You said, “look at the dictionary the meaning of cov. and tell to mr. Travis if its a commandment of God. the truth is IT’S NOT! here is the meaning:A covenant, in its most general sense, is a solemn promise to do or not do something specified.” So I responded,
You’re getting hasty, and you’re starting to act as if you don’t care about the truth. I hope you can slow down and form your thoughts a bit more clearly before commenting next.
September 27th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
Willis
You defeat your own argument when you quote Mt 5:17. Why? Becasue Mt 5:18-19 obligates you to keep ALL 600+ commandments of the law or be cursed per Deut 27 and 28, Neh 10:29 and Gal 3:10. It is either all or none. Make up your mind. In Mt 5:20-48 Jesus illustrated his point by quoting all three parts of the law. Besides, I am a Gentile and God never put Gentiles under the Old Covnenant at all.
Did Jesus abolish tithing? (1) He abolished the Old Covenant in Heb 7:18-19 and Heb 8:8-13. (2) He abolished the Temple and replaced it with the Temple of the believer. (3) He abolished the Aaronic priesthood and replaced it with the priesthood of every believer. (4) I do not see any Levites or Levitical cities collecting tithes today. (5) There were no Temple storehouses in the early church which did not even have buildings for over 200 years after Calvary. The entire system which required tithing disappeared at Calvary. Do you deny any of these facts?
September 27th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
thats a good one ” I do not see any Levites or Levitical cities collecting tithes today.” im gonna reward for this look and read what paul had mentioned in Hebrew 7. our Melchizedec is none other than Jesus Christ. it is no longer the levites who will handle the tithes but Jesus Christ. and Jesus is the head of the church. and was given in the care of Peter after he ascend to heaven. from the time on it has been transfered who ever is heading the church after the death of the apostles.
September 29th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
mr. Travis, sorry for the disturbance i know your patience is very wide. i made a search of this particular verse in deuteronomy 4:13 there are two different translations given in the above.
check and judge it for yourself:
NIV deut 4:13-He declared to you his covenant, the Ten commandments, which he commanded you to follow and the wrote them on two tablets.
KJV Deut 4:13-And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tablets of stone.
you see mr. Travis the new international version has mistranslated this verse thinking that the covenant is also the commandment of God whereareas the King James Version, the covenant is seperated from the commandment of God. the earliest version is the KJV, which is the reliable ones. so its true on what the dictionary meant by the word covenant may have conditions and prerequisites that qualify the undertaking, including the actions of second party and bound by the promise. i think that will sort it out.
September 29th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Willis
What about the other four points? You conveniently ignore them!
Heb 7 is not about tithing. It merely uses tithing to prove that Melchizedek was greater than Abraham.
(1) Heb 7:12 says that it is necessary to change the law and the only one specificly mentioned in Hebrews thus far has been 7:5 which is tithing from Numbers 18. (2) The”change” was it “abolishment” in 7:18 because of the “better covenant” in 7:19. You are selectively ignoring what God’s Word really says and conveniently forget major points against your case. (3) While the high priest was changed from Aaron to Jesus the regualar priesthood was changed to the priesthod of every believer. Is that true or not? “Yes” or “no.”
September 30th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Willis, you have to keep in mind that the KJV uses an archaic form of the English language. (That is, they talked different back then.) To the KJV’s original audience, “even ten commandments” meant “that is, ten commandments.” In this case, the NIV simply made the meaning clear to today’s English-speaking people.
An illustration of what I mean can be found in Psalm 23:1 (KJV): “The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want.” To modern readers, that sounds like David is saying he doesn’t want God. Rather, David is saying that he lacks (is “in want” of) nothing, because the LORD is his shepherd.
Hope that helps. If you aren’t comfortable taking my word for it, though, feel free to track down someone like an English Literature professor—someone who has a good deal of experience with English texts from the “Middle Ages” and who can verify what I’ve said here regarding Middle English uses of words like “even” and “want.”
October 4th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
greetings to Mr. Russel. my comments that i’ve prepared is in responds you’ve made in number 98 concerning the law in the book of hebrew 7.
first of all we need to understand the duty and regulation of being a Priest in the old testament.
there are 2 regulations being performed by a Priest when it he comes in the presence of the Lord.
first, the burn offerings mentioned in Lev. 6: 25 “Tell Aaron and his sons: This is the law of the sin offering. (A) The sin offering is most holy and must be slaughtered before the LORD at the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered.” for the sin offerings.
second. the tithes offering mentioned in Deut 26. however there are some other regulations not to mention here since these are only mentioned by Paul in his book.
regulations according to the dictionary it is “A principle, rule, or law designed to control or govern conduct. ”
so Regulations can also be called a Law.
In Heb 7:1-17, defines the tithings law. where he explained that the Levites who handling the tithes has been transfered to Melchisedec. v12 “For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.” or change of authority in this case.
The blood sacrifices that mentioned in Heb 7 start in verse 18 “For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, v19 for the law made nothing perfect…” take note of the word “perfect” and compare to 10:8 : Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them †(which are offered according to the law), v9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.â€[a] He takes away the first that He may establish the second. v10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all..
now compare again to 8:13. v13 In that He says, “A new covenant, †He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (from old towards to the new covenant)
the distinction between the old and new covenant is in the blood offering for the remission of sins. for in the old cov. they require to offer sacrifices yearly. while in the new cov. he offered himself for once. thus the latter is a perfect sacrifice.
the question arises: if Jesus Christ came to abolish the Laws of old? then what for that he cleans us our sins? for sin is the transgressions of the law. and law is like a mirror. if you remove the mirror that will not remove the dirt on your face. so i made a conclussion that the laws of God still in force thru the new covenant which is spiritual in nature. and that Jesus Christ removes only the penalty of sin. that will solve the question. – wils
October 5th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Willis, I’m convinced by the New Testament that “the Law of God” does not necessarily equal “the Laws given to Moses.” If you read Acts 15, for instance, it’s clear that the Apostles did not think Gentiles were to be required to follow the Mosaic Law.
October 5th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Willis said: “In Heb 7:1-17, defines the tithing law. where he explained that the Levites who handling the tithes has been transferred to Melchisedec. v12 ‘For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.’ or change of authority in this case.”
Russ: First, the tithing “law” or “statute” is Numbers 18 and fortunately no church today follows ANY of that statute. Second, 7:12 says absolutely nothing about transferring tithing to Melchizedek’s authority. That is your fantasy.
Willis said: “The blood sacrifices that mentioned in Heb 7 start in verse 18 “For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness.”
Russ: No. Verse 18 begins the CONCLUSION of the arguments from verses 1-17! I hope you are not Word-Faith but they put a lot of importance on “first occurrence” texts. Guess what. Hebrews 7:5 is the “first” occurrence in Hebrews of the words “tithes,” “commandment” and “law”! While all of the Mosaic Law is in view, the specific “law” being discussed is the “statute” of tithing from verse 5. When verse 12 says there is a necessary “change” of the “law” it must refer back to tithing from verse 5. And when verse 18 says the “commandment” has been “annulled” must also refer back to tithing from verse five. Argue all you want to but you cannot deny common sense (or maybe you can).
Willis said: “v19 ‘for the law made nothing perfect…’ take note of the word ‘perfect’ and compare to 10:8.”
Russ: You are trying to change the subject and avoid the obvious. “Perfect” from verse 19 refers back to “perfect” from verse 11.
Willis said: “the distinction between the old and new covenant is in the blood offering”
Russ: You only touch on one of many distinctions. (1) the old covenant only to Israel has been replaced by the new to all nations; (2) the Law has changed from tables of stone and writings by Moses to the heart of believers who are new creations; (3) the Levites who received the whole first tithe in their Levitical cities are gone and replaced by non-paid church workers (see Neh 10:37b); (4) the priesthood which received a tenth of the tithe from the Levites is gone and has been replaced by the priesthood of all believers who does not tithe to themselves. (5) NT church officers are more like the prophets and schools of the prophets in the OT who were supported by freewill offerings or earned their own living. You are trying to compare apples to lemons.
Willis said: “the question arises: if Jesus Christ came to abolish the Laws of old? then for what does he cleans us our sins? for sin is the transgressions of the law. and law is like a mirror.”
Russ: Every tithing debate ends up a discussion about the law which is the root problem. Like Travis said, you try to equate the Mosaic Law with the moral law which is written in the heart of every believer. They are not the same. (1) Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law. (2) Yet in Rom 2:14-16 even Gentiles are guilty for breaking the moral law. (3) Having met the righteous requirements of the law, Jesus is now the standard of judgment for the believer. Have you ever read John 3:16? That is what it says!
Willis said: “So I made a conclusion that the laws of God still in force thru the new covenant which is spiritual in nature. and that Jesus Christ removes only the penalty of sin. that will solve the question.”
Russ: You do not understand tithing because you do not understand the law. Read Exodus 21 to 23 and tell me how much of it you follow. I hope you do not own slaves and I hope that you have not killed any of your children for disrespect lately.
Did British law suddenly disappear when the US signed the Declaration of Independence? No. But it did for US citizens. That is the comparison.
October 10th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
PERFECT SACRIFICE
Russel said: No. Verse 18 begins the
CONCLUSION of the arguments from verses 1-17! I hope you are not Word-Faith but they put a lot of importance on “first occurrence†texts…(Rom 7)
…mr. Russel i hope you are familiar with the word “perfect” when it comes in biblical term. all of these verses that i’ve gathered may have changed your conclussion..
heb 7:18
v18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (animal sacrifice)
v19 (for the law made nothing PERFECT), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (introduction of the new covenant)
…now compare these verses…
heb 10:11-14
v11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (animal sacrifices)
v12 But when this priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. (christ sacrifice)
v13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,
v14 because by one SACRIFICE he has made PERFECT forever those who are being made holy.
now compare:
…for the law (animals blood) made nothing PERFECT…
…by one SACRIFICE (christ body) he has made
PERFECT forever …
* by what sacrifice did Paul mean?
heb 10:5-6
v5…..”Sacrifice and offering (animals sacrifice) you did not desire,
but a body (christ sacrifice) you prepared for me;
v6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
* does the verse 18 of Rom 7 applied to tithings law?
i dont think so mr Russel.
October 11th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
LITERALNESS OF THE LAW
Russ said: “You do not understand tithing because you do not understand the law. Read Exodus 21 to 23 and tell me how much of it you follow….”
let me get it straight to your point by examining verse to verse in this chapter.
i will cite one verse in connection with the laws of God.
in Exodus 21:17-
v17 “Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
in this example you will see how the law magnify its precepts thru literal means of obedience to God. no anything of spiritual mean of obedience that may inherit salvation is present. all has been set as a civil laws that requires the penalty of death by breaking it. this is how the old covenant works without the holy spirit of God. they obey the laws of God carnally, without thinking that it was a spiritual law that require spiritual obedience..
when the old cov. was annuled and void. the laws of God has been put into effect thru the new cov. which is spiritual in nature. the Holy spirit upon inbued to any one will fulfill the requirements of the law. now compare that verse into the new testament teachings.
Rom 13:8-10-
v8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
v9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,â€
“You shall not murder,â€
“You shall not steal,â€
“You shall not bear false witness,â€[a]
“You shall not covet,â€[b] and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.â€[c]
v10 Love does no HARM to a neighbor;
therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
….with the comparison of these verses. all those precepts written in exodus 21 & 22 which is literalnes in nature will now be a spiritual precept in the new cov. that is why i never include it in all of our topics. the laws of God i felt sorry if i’ve offended you by my previous statement. but that is only my outward gesture and not a personal one. when it comes in the word of God i’ll always make sure that is a true and honest before i send it to anyone. cos it involves me a lot of works and research from anothers author’s mind. the credits belongs to them who contributed much of my knowledge and also to you and mr. Travis. thank you.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Great post! I just stumbled across this, and I have been wondering about this issue a lot this week. I go to 2 different churches and both of them this week were really pushing the “tithe” thing. This isn’t normal for them, so it started to make me wonder. I had no problem tithing before, but they made me feel, like you said about, “robbing God”.
I didn’t feel the Holy Spirit at all on this. Glad you posted this to set the record straight!
October 16th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Willis
I stick by my previous statement. Rather than allow Hebrews 7 to explain itself you are floating around for out-of-context statements.
?Verse 18 begins the CONCLUSION of the arguments from verses 1-17! …
Hebrews 7:5 is the “first†occurrence in Hebrews of the words “tithesâ€, “commandment†and “lawâ€! While all of the Mosaic Law is in view, the specific “law†being discussed is the “statute†of tithing from verse 5. When verse 12 says there is a necessary “change†of the “law†it must refer back to tithing from verse 5. And when verse 18 says the “commandment†has been “annulled†must also refer back to tithing from verse five. Argue all you want to but you cannot deny common sense (or maybe you can).”
I noticed that you began you exposition of the law in Exodus 21:17. Why did you skip 21:1-11? They use the Sabbath commandment to endorse slave ownereship. What is your “spiirutua application” of this salvery endorsement?
You still refuse to answer where the Bible says that the Law was given to Gentiles.
Am I as an American citizen under any of the British laws which governed me before the Declaration of Independence in 1776? Why not? They were mostly good laws, weren’t they?
October 18th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
I tried to contact Willis via e-mail, but the address he left is giving me “permanent failure” errors. He has nearly 20 comments in my moderation queue(!) and I don’t intend to let them through. Not because of what he says, but because he rambles quite a bit and his comments get increasingly tangential. As I said, I attempted to e-mail him to speak to him privately about this, but he hasn’t left me that option. So, I have to do it here.
Willis, you seem to have quite a bit to say about all of this. Might I encourage you to start your own blog? You can do so at Wordpress.com or Blogger.com. It looks like you’re writing from Saudi Arabia, so I don’t know what sorts of restrictions they may have there. Still, if you can comment on a blog you can probably write one. By all means, do so. When it’s up, let me know about it and I’ll be happy to edit your comments so that your name links to that blog instead of Yahoo! (BTW, the link field is optional. It’s best to leave it blank if you don’t have a web site to link to.)
Anyway, there’s an obvious (to me, at least) language barrier between Willis and myself & Dr. Kelly. Because of that, it just takes too long to communicate well in the comments section of a blog post. I feel bad “restraining” Willis like this, but I would feel worse letting him run roughshod over this comment thread. Bugger. :/
October 18th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Travis
I am going to drop this thread sicne it has dried up. Please send me a personal email so I can add you to my list. The Wall Street Journal has finished an article against tithing and is awaiting an editor’s OK for publication. I would like to be able to notify you. God bless, my friend. My usual blog site is Tithing-Study at Yahoo groups. My personal web site has had well over 100, 000 page views and over 20,000 copies of my free book have been downloaded, so the word is going out strong.
In Christ’s love
Russ Kelly
October 21st, 2007 at 3:48 pm
I would like to know about future concerns, concerning the bible in anyway. How can I download your ebook on tithing? Thank You, Nancy
October 21st, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Nancy
You can download my book, Should the Church TeachTithing? free at my web site http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com. You can also view a 2 hour video essay using DSL or purchase either of the items.
Russ Kelly
October 22nd, 2007 at 9:41 am
Hi Travis
Thank you for bringing this topic to us. You know I have been asking myself why I’m also not comfortable when coming to paying tithe. You feel so scared because it looks like the pastor is victimising you if you didn’t pay. Recently my pastor preached that we can pay 5% or 6 % tithe until we get a breakthrough. Is that in the bible? Thank you for your boldness to speak about this matter freely. It’s high time that Children of God should wake up and start doing God’s will, ie, taking care of the Poor. Thanks Once again
Lilly from South Africa
October 22nd, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Lilly,
God bless you!
The Old Testament’s tithe laws and regulations do not allow any deviation from the three 10% tithes (two annual tithes, the third given once every three years). However, your pastor does not have any authority to collect the tithes in the Old Testament, unless he is a direct descendant of Moses’ brother, Aaron.
Feel free to give generously to the poor and those in need as God directs. Forget all the “tithe” nonsense. God may be calling you to give 1%, or 99%, or your time instead of your money, or free room and board, etc.
Christ did not set us free only to be bound again to the law of Moses’ regulations and sacrificial system. Follow the leading of his Holy Spirit, and seek to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
When you do that, you’ll be giving exactly what God has called you to give.
October 24th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Hmmm, I just read your article, and it confirmed what I had been reading on my own in the bible, about the tithe being bought to the priests so that they could help the poor. I broke my leg a few months back, and am unable to work now, and feed my little guy, and each time I go to a church for help, they refer me to Social Services to get food stamps. The same government entity that promotes abortion on demand, and wants birth control for 6th grade kids. The churches seem to feel it is not their job to help anyone, unless you live overseas…then they seem to want your money to help the people over there, by providing them with medical care, housing and food. But I have to wonder…what about people like me? Christians who have had an unfortunate time of it lately, and need some genuine help? Instead of help, I get requests to send them money to help their ministry, so they can help feed someone overseas. I don’t understand anymore what the church is supposed to be for.
October 29th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
“…each time I go to a church for help, they refer me to Social Services to get food stamps.”
Tracey, I know what you mean. My last pastor thought this sort of thing fulfilled his duty to the poor in our congregation. (Literally–he suggested the church office keep various welfare forms and applications in the lobby so anybody going through hard times could quickly and easily get financial assistance that way.)
November 4th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Thank you Travis. StumbledUpon this and glad I did. Attended a a friend’s church a week ago that made a point about tithing I was VERY uncomfortable with. After the sermon, the pastor spoke about giving (the church is behind budget on giving) and treated the tithe as a “fee for service”. The pastor strongly encouraged all christians and non-christians (!!!) who had attended to remember to “give” (though he spoke of it more as “paying” than “giving”). He actually likened the service to a movie (whether you liked it or not, you would pay for the service rendered). I was astounded (both on the tithing statement AND likening a service as entertainment to be paid for).
So thank you for a biblical and well thought out teaching on tithing. You have given me a lot to think about.
November 23rd, 2007 at 4:11 pm
[...] yeah, if you were wondering… the wound’s still a bit [...]
November 24th, 2007 at 2:52 am
Greetings in Christ! First I would like to commend you for the easy to understand pop-theology you utilize in delivering the truthes of scripture. I also have recently discovered the truth regarding new covenant giving, and the error of the practive of 10% or any other required number based under the old covenant. I recently started a blog titled,” Deceptions in the Church” So far I have one post in which I share a brief testimony of my life and how Christ saved me and transformed me. I plan to post regularly on various topics and issues plagueing the post-modern church. If you have any helpful hints on how to publish and get traffic to a blog, I would greatly appreciate it. I am sort of new to blogging!:) Anyhow, keep up the good work in preaching the word of God, rightfully dividing the truth, and revealing it as the Spirit leads you. My moto, scripture is self interpretive and stands on it’s own merrit. We need to take off the spectacles of traditional and erroneous views and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth as revealed in the written Word.
God bless, In Christ,
Goran
December 18th, 2007 at 4:20 am
Hi Travis
Can you please explain this chapter for me: Hebrew 7. especially when it speaks about tithing.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Lilly, the more pressing question is this: how do you explain Hebrews 7 in light of Numbers 31:25-47?
Abraham gave 10% of his war spoils to Melchizedek and the other 90% to the king of Sodom. The LORD commanded the Israelites give either 2% or 0.2% in such a case, depending on whether they fought in the battle. (Non-fighters gave 2%, fighters gave 0.2%. Either way, it’s a far cry from 10%!)
If war spoils were a Lawful source of tithes (“tithable income”), God would have been commanding disobedience to direct the Israelites to act this way. In God’s eyes, war spoils (what Abraham “tithed” from) and the crops you grow in your field are different things, and only one of them is to be “tithed” on, and only then to support the Levitical priesthood.
Abraham’s gift to Melchizedek is not a “tithe” ever commanded by God in Scripture, and was only used by the author of Hebrews to illustrate his point. Like many pastors today, the author ended up clouding the obvious truth in the cited passage in favor of bolstering a point it was never trying to make.
January 19th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Wow! I’ve had quite an education about tithing in the last few days! We have tithed ourselves into a financial pit. Please check out my post about it.
February 28th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Thanks so much for this discussion, really got me thinking. I am posting about tithing at my own site, and included quotes from your posting – I hope that’s OK.
February 28th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Pete, you’ve got a nice series shaping up there. Thanks for the heads-up! (And I quote other bloggers all the time. It’s cool.)
February 29th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
[...] Sadly, they didn’t bother to even try to answer my questions until they found out that I had posted my thoughts on the tithe here at my blog. Even then, I was met with a general unwillingness to discuss my questions and [...]
March 8th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
I have never heard such blasphemous garbage and changing of the word of God to fit your own idea of what is true. You are as wrong as wrong can be and if you take ANY part of the Word of God and say it was for a certain time, then anyone can take ALL of the Word and change it until our grandchildren won’t even recognize what is right from evil. Tithing is a test to test your own heart to see if you are willing to give all you have to God. He doesn’t require all, just a tenth. and it was and it is and it will always be. Don’t you know that if you are telling these folks wrong and they quit tithing that their sin will be on your head? If i am wrong i’d rather lose a tenth of my money than my place in heaven.
March 8th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
“You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
This is the “offense of the cross” Paul spoke of in Galatians 5: that we really aren’t bound to any of the laws given to Moses.
I didn’t change anything; Jesus fulfilled the whole Law, and we’re not obligated to it anymore.
Rather, we’re obligated to pursue the Law of Love.
Fran, please go back and read my conclusion at the end of the blog post. If you really think that it’s blasphemous to say that we’re giving to God by caring for the poor (rather than investing in multi-million dollar meetinghouses), then I would have to suggest that maybe you don’t really know Jesus as he is.
But maybe that’s not why you accused me of blasphemy. Regardless, you didn’t give a reason for why you considered my statement so devilish, so I don’t really know how I’m supposed to respond except to say, “that’s nice.”
March 10th, 2008 at 11:54 am
I have never heard such blasphemous garbage and changing of the word of God to fit your own idea of what is true.
Never?
Franny dear, you really need to get out more.
In the meantime… [link]
March 10th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
::wags finger::
Now, now, Kneon… remember to be kind to the new readers.
March 10th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Well, I called her “dear” didn’t I? ::grin::
March 11th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
A nice exposition and commentary here, Travis. I know I read this before, but in light of what I blogged about recently, I thought I’d come back and read it again fresh.
Blessings.
April 16th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
wow. Hot topic here. I am going to have to really pray to our Father about this one. I will also be going to my earthly daddy I truly respect his opinion when it comes to Biblical finances etc. in fact he used to teach a course at CCC years and years ago on that topic. hmmmm… Me thinks I feel a long heart to heart daddy/daughter style!
Thank you for spurring me on to think. I am not sure if I agree with you, but I appreciate your time, effort, and thoughts on this topic.
April 16th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Travis
The Numbers 31 passage is really 1% and .1% because it is 1/50th of one half and 1/500 of one half.
The person who wanted a discussion on Hebrews 7 can read my chapter here:
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id8.html
April 17th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Karen: I hear ya! I was a hardcore “10% on gross” tither for two decades.
Russell: Yes, the war spoils “tax” equaled 1.1% of the total spoils, but each individual warrior was taxed 0.2% and each individual member of the congregation was taxed 2% on their own allotment. Since we’re talking about the individual’s responsibility, I went with the numbers applicable to the individuals in question.
April 17th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Travis.. I have a decade on you of wrestling with the tithe!
One thing i will say is this. My dad always taught me that tithing of your time when you didn’t have the cashflow was acceptable. In fact that is what my husband and I are doing at this time. Augmentation with time of what we are giving in the “plate.”
btw… I did read you and your wife’s profile/romance. Very sweet. Being that I am 8 years older than the love of my life, my wonderful husband, I can relate to her side just a bit.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Travis-
I have come to beleive in tithing, after originally taking your position that tithing is not Biblical.
But good for you that you are being Berean about issues! The churches need more of that from their congregants.
Anyway, what convinced me is Paul writing about how Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, and how Jesus is the new Melchizedek, his priesthood replacing Melchizedek’s. I beleive Paul then quotes Christ as saying the Pharisees should have taken care of the sick and poor while at the same time NOT neglecting the tithe.
My own studies of tithing led me to begin to tithe. This is, admittedly, the opposite direction of a lot of people who study tithing- LOL. What are your thoughts on Christ and Melchizidek and tithing?
-Ribu John
June 1st, 2008 at 12:34 am
After so many months of studies I have found that this law still binding even to this day and still amazed of where did the doctrine that opposed the tithing come from?
Read my blog and you will have an answer from the combination of the two fractions and it is a clear 10 percent which is considered the holiest tithe of God.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Amos 4:4-5
“(4) Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three years: (5) And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.”
This shows that if you are tithing in Gilgal and also offering the leaven sacrifice, you are just wasting your money. The problem is that we are seeing lot of Pastors who call themselves Priest taking our offering and I’m telling you, in my area, these guys are are stinking rich, they drive beautiful cars, their children are in good schools and while we are struggling with inflation and high fuel price and food price, that doesn’t bother them, there is always offering and tithe at the end of the week.
Willis, I would understand if the tithing was done in a biblical way. Remember, if the priest was not completely pure, he would get out of the holy of holies dead. Nowadays we are seeing divorcing pastors preaching to us, men without good reputation standing before the body of Christ with the Filthiness. Churches are now organisation and my Pastor one day, I do not know if he heard himself, he said he has been long in this Industry, meaning the church. Go on waste your money!!!
June 27th, 2008 at 12:03 am
Travis,
Now I understand why you blog movie reviews.
Bless you for taking this on. You are obviously correct, and the Scripture is so clear on this matter.
Has no one heard of the Jerusalem Council?
June 27th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Jim,
Ah, you saw right through me.
I asked my previous (SGM) pastor specifically about the Jerusalem Council in regard to tithing. He gave me something of a “hmm… that’s interesting — I never thought about that” answer and never said another word on the matter.
But I’m sure you never experienced anything like that.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
[...] On his website, blogger Travis gives some historical background on tithing, and why it does not apply today: one thing that constantly trips up modern-day Christians is that we fail to remember that the Law given to Moses did not merely outline a religious system… it was a constitution establishing a nation’s government. Thus, we need not only to discern which laws were sacrificial in nature (as Christians, we hold that Jesus Christ is our atonement and makes all other sacrifices—and thus all laws requiring sacrifices—moot), but also whether certain laws were governmental or sacramental in nature. While this may be a simple process with the laws of a “secular” nation, it can get difficult when you’re dealing with a theocracy. [...]
July 4th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Travis,
What do you think about this passage on tithing:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
-Matthew 23:23
Thanks!
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Psychoanalysis: People who are very bitter after being in churches that abuse the tithe system tend to overcompensate and try to find any and all arguments that excuse them from tithing. They are understandably upset, disillusioned, and they feel cheated. They are determined to never tithe again, so they never have to feel cheated again.
Jesus said to not neglect the tithe. These words were uttered by Christ himself in Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42. Also see Hebrews 7 for an explanation of how Christ is the new High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, and as Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, so we are to tithe now to Christ.
People need to try to stop making escuse for themselves through “justification interpretations”. Just tithe already. 10% off your net income won’t kill you.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:59 am
“People who are very bitter after being in churches that abuse the tithe system tend to overcompensate”
Other than using “react” instead of “overcompensate,” I agree with you here. Now: given that I began questioning this particular doctrine during my membership classes (after which I joined, then remained a member for nearly two years), are you really going to accuse me of being such a bitter reactionary?
Jesus told people under the Law to obey the Law. At the very same time, he made it abundantly clear that the tithe regulations weren’t important parts of the Law.
Hebrews 7 says that Jesus is a different kind of priest. It says absolutely NOTHING about who (if anyone) we’re supposed to tithe to.
Ribu, you have no substantial argument in support of tithing, so you try to make a level playing field by claiming that nobody else does, either (that’s the point of your first paragraph). But man, you have no game. So stop trying; you’re only going to embarrass yourself.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:56 am
No game? wha…
We’re talking about tithing. We’re not talking about practice. Mr. Iverson, are we talking about practice?
Travis, it’s nice to see a Christian in the comics industry, since there are few in it. Kudos to you for breaking in, and for having a blog.
But your blog isn’t exactly Stan’s Soapbox, and any of your views on tithing (or any other subject) aren’t equal to voices of the apostles, church fathers, or to Lewis, Charles Stanley or even Alistair Begg. Plus, I’m not here to invade your blog-kingdom and challenge your throne in your own house. I know this, however, when I study the scripture or discuss the scripture, it is not a game to me. I’m here on this Earth to learn and grow in the Lord like everyone else posting here.
I used to never tithe. Please do understand that, like you, I have also researched the subject to come to the conclusion that I need not tithe. Having further researched it, I reversed that decision and concluded that tithing is indeed pleasing to God and a Christ-given directive, further backed by Paul. I was willing to change my mind. Furthermore, I convinced myself, in Berean fashion. No pastor took me under his wing and plied me with a cocktail of guilt, emotions, and scriptures for that to happen. I simply changed my mind in the course of study.
I stand by the comments about people being bitter after seeing churches in corruption. Spiritual abuse is a huge problem in Evangelical-style Christianity. It is a tool of Satan often in the hands of once well-meaning pastors who have gotten on a high horse and think they can start twisting the scriptures in order to achieve some good. These pastors steadily and surely become villians, a la the effect of the Ring in Tolkien’s work. I’m fairly certain none of these liars started off that way. They learned to justify lying, and in their actions, scarred many people. Many of those people came to hate God becuase of how they were manipulated for money in a church.
Like I said before, tithe to support the church. It’s not as big a financial burden as people fear. It won’t kill anyone who budgets. Churches need tithes. It’s the best way to fund the church, and that is why it was mandated in wisdom.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Ribu, where was tithing mandated to “fund the church”?
July 30th, 2008 at 3:37 am
Jesus word’s that the Pharisees should not neglect the tithe don’t count? I would read it as a mandate of implication.
In fact, Paul teaches that we are to provide for the pastors and missionaries (1 Corinthians 9:7, and all the rest of the beginning of chapter 9- and 1 Timothy 5:18 which teaches that pastors deserve their wages in honor). This is even though Paul himself worked as a tentmaker in order to minister to more people through commerce and teach “ministry in the workplace” to new Christians (and to us who have jobs in today’s world- and work with unbeleivers). Tell me, how should we support the pastors and missionaries. Is there a viable option to replace the tithe?
Also remember, the tithe has nothing to do with Mosaic law. After all, Abraham predated Mosaic law, but he still tithed. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek while Melchizedek was in the position of High Priest of the Most High God before Christ took that position (see Hebrews 7). It stands to reason that Christ, as High Priest, now gets the tithes. One can see that even in the time of Cain and Abel there was giving to God in some sense.
People will make the argument that we don’t have to follow the old testament. And they’ll say the Mosaic laws in particular are no longer valid. While it’s true that many of them were made obsolete by Christ and the apostles, the tithe itself was not one of them. Nowhere does it say in the New Testament that we don’t have to tithe anymore.
I would stand against any pastor saying something ludicrous like “people are ROBBING GOD if they don’t tithe!” using a opportunistic interpretation of Malachi 3. That would be because God doesn’t judge solely by the wallet, but by the heart. I would also be against using and interpretation of “firstfruits doctrine” for teaching that tithing be from the gross income instead of the net increase. And while it is true that churces during the new testament era, and many other eras such as the dark and middke ages, were probably too poor to tithe enough to support their pastors or the apostles and other missionanaries, or to tithe at all, the fact remains that the principle of supporting those in ministry was set up by Paul, regardless of whether or not Paul chose to use support for himself. This in conjunction with Christ’s implication that the tithe should not be neglected both serve to lead to a rationalization that pastors and missionaries and churches should then be supported via tithing.
-Ribu John
August 1st, 2008 at 10:28 am
a tithe was an offering to the Lord to remind us that we need him, regardless of how much we earn or how much we don’t earn.
as far as God’s commandment, it is physically impossible to follow each and every one of His commandments to the t. Jesus even says that even if you think of sinning against another, then that is equal to have committed the sin physically. the fact of the matter is God sent Jesus, because only Jesus could live a life worthy enough to say it was perfect, and He died a death that we had to suffer, in it’s entirety, so that we have no need to either live or die the death that we deserve. there is nothing that we can do to redeem ourselves of the sinful lives that we all lead. no matter how many good deeds you do, no matter how well we follow the commandments, no matter how well we try to avoid thinking lustful, covetful, even maybe murderous thoughts, we will always fall flat because in the end, we are only human, as the saying goes.
that’s why we tithe. it’s a reminder of who we really need in our lives and how grateful we are of the blood of Christ shed FOR us so that we may be lifted up. So tithe, it’s humbling.
August 1st, 2008 at 10:39 am
Jesus said that we give to him when we give to the poor (who can’t repay us).
Did he ever say that we give to him when we write a check to a pastor?
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:51 am
I just don’t understand why the Apostle Paul would teach in 1 Timothy 5:18 that the pastor deserves his wages and that we shouldn’t keep him from getting wages from the church (don’t muzzle the ox) if it would be just as okay to not write a check to the pastor. Out of the tithe check, the pastor gets paid, but also the poor get help (its called the Barnabas barrel in many churches), ministries and outreaches get funded, and the church is maintained for the needs of the building. Also other church workers get paid.
Why shouldn’t we write a check to the pastor? Is EVERY pastor expected to be a tentmaker like Paul was? If so, then why 1 Timothy 5:18?
When we write a check to the pastor, we pay the pastor, and we take care of the poor, and we fund ministries and missions. All those things are done for Jesus. Of course, needless to say, a tithe check to the pastor is for all intents and purposes a check to Christ himself. That’s the way it works out if the pastor is the honest sort.
-Ribu John
August 8th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Why is something so simple as tithing such a big issue with you?
August 26th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Hello, I sat and read almost all of the post and I have thisto say.I was and still kinda a member of a small church about 10 members. I was giving tithes faithfully about $200 a week. I knew that the majority of the members were receiving food stamps , fixed income and the only people that worked were me, the pastors husband and her daughter.I gave willingly because I assumed that when the members needed help the pastor would have the funds to give them food and etc.. I have 7 children and my husband use to bring them to church when I had to work. at that time we were renting hotel rooms for service. the pastor brought alot of new outfits and getting her hair done ” she stated “if the pastor looks tore up it looks bad for our church”The money was being spent on herself and her family members, when her daughter would preach she would give her money, when her son-in-law say a few words she would give him money. Our family left because she lied about giving certain gifts to the needy children. She brought her family expensive things and gave the other children 99 cent things .It is a lot more to tell but it doesn’t matter now. I went to the church(they now have a building that a Catholic pastor loaned them which is about to be foreclosed on) I sense that if i start to give tithes again I don’t know where it will go.You are supposed to give with a glad heart. It hurts to think how she made a single mother spend her food stamps on ingredients for pie sale for the church and not help her when she needs food. I try to get souls and talk to people but the first thing everyone says it they can’t afford to go to church. that might be an excuse but I feel that way when the preacher asks for specific amounts and pass collection plate with envelopes so you have to write down your name and amount. Should I continue to tithe there? Am I wrong to feel this way? Am I sinning?
September 13th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Ann- Find a new church.
There are lots of problems when looking for churches. We live in a corrupt world, and God’s truths are going to be corrupted by both men and women of God as well as by men and women who don’t beleive in God.
Use your brain and pray for wisdom.
-Ribu John
November 6th, 2008 at 2:51 am
Ribu John-
You exegesis scriptures very well.
I thoroughly enjoyed your sublime dissertation of biblical tithing principles. I’ve done an in-depth examination of Ten Commandments and intent to teach them to young and mature Christians. This information will be tremendously beneficial to the congregants at my soon to be church. I can add this information to a certain part of the teaching. If people could only comprehend God’s agape love then giving will be a breeze. Thanks for your conscientious labor and diligence in clarifying these scriptures.
God bless you all.
A fellow laborer in Christ-
November 6th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
You know, I always meant to get back to Ribu John on his last comment. In fact, I have a drafted response laying around here somewhere…
…but not today. Maybe tomorrow, or the day after, or next week. Suffice it to say, I remain unconvinced by his unoriginal (and deeply flawed) defense of Christian “tithing.”
December 8th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Preacher-
All glory to God. But I hope your training sessions go well.
December 8th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Travis-
I’ve bookmarked this page, so I can check back every so often. But if you want, just email me about this issue in a back-and-forth. Posting publically here is fine too. Despite what you may read from me at the ccnet christian comics forum (user: CrypticMyopic), my intention is not to fight about things.
I know I rub your buddy Kneon the wrong way, but you and I can still be tithe-topic buddies, right?? hehe A little jokey-joke… JK… I like Kneon- after all, Transformers 2 is coming out soon (just ask him about this using Transformers 2 and Cryptic Ribu John in the same sentence).
-Ribu John
January 20th, 2009 at 8:44 am
MUCH BLESSING TO YOU I HAVE BEEN PUT OUT THE CHURCH I BEEN TAIKING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT FOR 22 YEARS AND STILL TAIKING WERE EVER I GO THE BIBLE STATES MY PEOPLE ARE DESTOY FOR LACK KNOWELGE MUCH BLESSING TO YOU KEEP UP THE WORK TO SET GOD PEOPLE FREE AND I WILL DO YHE SAME MUCH RESPECT………..
January 28th, 2009 at 12:15 am
To Whoever Has Time To Read This,
A few quick points, and I hope I’m not repeating points that have already been said (I never read everyone elses opinions, only some).
1) Tithing is not just about the Law of Moses, Abraham tithed before the Law was given, see Genesis 14:18-20.
2) I read earlier that someone said (and I quote),”I am appalled at how many preachers tell their poor sick members to give their first 10% to the church. That is sin and goes against Acts 20:35″ (end quote)
Acts 20:35 says (at the end), “It is more blessed to give than to receive”. If “givers” receive a “blessing” shouldn’t pastors who care about the Church encourage “poor sick members” to give so that they may receive that blessing! Tithing is a great place to start and it is very honoring to the Lord, just like Abraham.
3) According to Acts 2:45; 4:34,35 the New Testament Church gave alot more than 10%.
4) One more thing to remember, tithing is not a “salvation issue” but it is definitely a “heart issues”.
If any one would like to talk more on this my e-mail is GraceandTruthCC@msn.com, and yes, I am a pastor. I teach people to tithe so they may honor and obey the Lord, and the Lord is so faithful to take care of His sheep! Thank you!
February 24th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Travis, I respect what you have said in your posts and i do understand the 10% as a tithe debat but would like to honestly know how you think Church should be done? I have been in full time ministry for 20 years and am by no means a “Legalist” but have seen way too many people uses your argument as an “excuse” to not give anything at all!
If Churches today functioned by this teaching of yours then in reality you would have no “Chesapeke Community Church” like you currently have to worship in!
I just think it’s a lame excuse for people that want to be greedy with their resources and say it’s an unbiblical principle. If that’s the case then let’s practice the NT teaching of selling everything and giving it to the needy.
The whole point of my rambling post for you is “How does the Bibical model of Church function without the tithe?” kevin
February 24th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Kevin,
Thanks for joining in on the conversation! (By the way, it’s a conversation which was started here nearly 2 years ago. I left Chesapeake Community Church a few months after penning this post.)
I’m going to address your main question to me, but please go back and make sure you read my entire post (specifically my conclusion). I already addressed some things you seem to think I didn’t, which leads me to believe you didn’t actually read the whole thing. Don’t make me repeat myself, Mister!
So anyway…. How do I think “church should be done”? Well, I suppose the same way that family is “done.” For instance, I’m the spiritual leader in my home. I don’t expect my children to work and give me a portion of their money as compensation for my leadership and training! However, if I or one of their siblings were in need of something—something which they were able to provide—then I most certainly would expect my child to share what they had so that a member of their family didn’t have to go without.
To counter your accusation, I think tithing is just a lame excuse for pastors to be greedy with other people’s resources, and lazy about heeding the Apostle Paul’s clear teaching on the matter:
“Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. And when they came to him, he said to them: ‘I coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. In all things I have shown you that we must help the weak by working hard in this way. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” — Acts 20:17-18,33-35
When Paul says, “we,” remember that he’s speaking to all the elders of the Church (in Ephesus). In other words, the Apostle Paul taught that church elders must work hard, providing for their own necessities, in order to help the weak (rather than being a burden to them).
Y’know, Pharaoh accused the Hebrew slaves of laziness when they cried out for release from the burden of heavy labor and unjust demands which he had placed on them. It’s a pretty common thing for oppressors to do to the oppressed. Be careful not to follow after his example.
February 28th, 2009 at 1:39 am
I see both sides. I think those that have been hurt due to pastors or leaders abusing the tithe really do look for a reason not to give. I am one of them. I also think the worker is worthy of his wages. Trust me, I have been on full time staff at church. I always felt underpaid (trust me I was). But I also think that before a pastor teaches that we must tithe 10 percent, he should hold at least a part time job and stop relying on the congregation’s tithes to support him. They love to tell us that we need to believe God to provide, but why don’t they believe God for their provision instead of relying on our paychecks?
Um, yes, I have some hurts and it has affected my desire to tithe 10. Its not that giving 10 percent hurts financially. Its that giving 10 percent to people who can afford to travel the world while I am stuck in town working my a– off kind of gets to me. And they need our checks to pay for their luxury vehicles instead of getting a decent used car and increasing offerings to missionaries who really are doing the work of the Lord with little means. Hmmm…pastors have flatscreen tvs and iPods and blackberrys. And they send pennies to our missionaries. No thanks. I’d rather give 10 percent directly to missionaries in Africa and the Philippines.
Yep, this is not a debate. Sorry, I just had to rant.
March 8th, 2009 at 5:18 am
Hey Travis, thank you very much for the clear information about tithing. Starting about a year ago me and my wife starting having financial trouble as a lot of americans have had latelty. (We Unfortunately go to a church that beats money down your throat). We couldnt afford to tithe for about a year. We have a two year old and had make the choice between eating and tithing, we ate.
After several months my pastor had someone else come and talk to me about not tithing, (apperantly he looks at who tithes). So after this conversation i went to my pastor to speak with him about it. He informed me he was just being a good spiritual father and he was correcting something i was doing wrong, like if your child is misbehaving. I fell for it and tithed with my next pay check,,,, BIG MISTAKE. We almost couldnt pay our rent, we had to barrow money… i knew this was wrong, i just didnt know how to fight it. thank you for speaking the truth..
March 10th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
great blog. first i would lie to say that tithing so you can build a high dollar church is way wrong. helping people out of love is awesome maybe im wrong but i wont pay someone with a degree in theolgy to preach to me. ive seen adds for preachers in papers for six figure salaries, must have a degree to apply with resume????? what is wrong with this picture? scripture tells me that where several are gathered together in jesus’ name there he is also yet this high dollar preacher says im a sinner because im not in his church paying him tithes so he can pay for a new bmw. i give what i can when i can in ways that i feel the good lord has led me to give to. im satisfied i am tithing and will face judjement content that is how jesus intended me to give, out of love instead of coerced by scripture twisting greedy pastors. and by no means do i mean all pastors or churches are this way, but a lot are seen many of them. god bless
March 30th, 2009 at 12:49 am
I totaly agree with tis Blog..travis..that is the name i gave to my son….go0d job my friend..I would just like to say what cleaned up the tithing issue with me…was what Jesus said when he hung is head on the cross…IT IS FINISHED…NO MORE …special days of observance..no more animal sacrifices…and now we can no longer rob god..because when we become part of his family..whe then distribute HIS wealth not ours…
May 4th, 2009 at 10:56 am
I did not understand the fool entity of tithing. I knew that it was mentioned in the old testament on several occassions. The realization that I came to was that these people did not have jobs like we presently have today, they believed God and made certain sacrifices and vows to God to be blessed. According to Phillipians 4:16, God said he will supply my every need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So I firmly take God at his word and call it back to his rememberance. Now don’t get me wrong if my bother or sister is in need and I am in a situation to help them I will. I believe that God makes provisions for his children as long as they are living their lives to please him and not man. May God Bless.
May 4th, 2009 at 11:03 am
CORRECTION FULL NOT FOOL (S0RRY ABOUT THAT)
I did not understand the FULL entity of tithing. I knew that it was mentioned in the old testament on several occassions. The realization that I came to was that these people did not have jobs like we presently have today, they believed God and made certain sacrifices and vows to God to be blessed. According to Phillipians 4:16, God said he will supply my every need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So I firmly take God at his word and call it back to his rememberance. Now don’t get me wrong if my bother or sister is in need and I am in a situation to help them I will. I believe that God makes provisions for his children as long as they are living their lives to please him and not man. May God Bless.
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:56 am
My husband and I have been tithing 10% of our gross income for almost 20 years. We are a one income family (I stay home to home school our kids). We do without cell phones, cable, restaurants, etc., but rarely does a month go by that I am not stressing out about our budget. I have read both sides of the tithing argument. I want so badly to agree with your view, but I almost feel tormented about what to do. If we continue to tithe the way we have, I feel I’m not pleasing God anyway because it is not being done cheerfully, but more because I thought it was commanded. On the other hand, if I don’t tithe, I feel enormous guilt in the pit of my stomach. Please help!
June 3rd, 2009 at 10:04 am
Patty, you really don’t want me (or anyone else here) to “help.” We can put forward our arguments pro and con, but if you do anything because you’re convinced by one or more of our arguments, then that fear and guilt will remain. You need to follow Jesus’ voice — not mine, not another blogger’s, not your pastor’s.
Listen for your Shepherd’s voice–hear what He says, and follow Him–and you won’t have to worry about the bleatings of the other sheep.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
No new big developments on this thread. But regardless, let me re-enter this discussion by pointing out that this is a good thread. Its open and honest. I’ve seen a few tithing threads on blogs and boards, but this one is the most interesting. I’d expect the most interesting thread on tithing to be by some big preacher or on Christianity Today or something… but this one is really good.
Patty- if you can’t do it cheerfully, then stop tithing. I advocate tithing, but you are right in that it is worthless if not done cheerfully. God doesn’t want your money without your heart, otherwise its just another monthly bill.
-Ribu
August 13th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Stumbled across this blog post while reading about tithing.
Travis, you have correctly divided God’s word. Thank you for the presenting the truth in love.
Ribu John and others who believe tithing is scriptural: I’ve read your comments and I’m unconvinced by your position.
As pointed out in this thread many times, there is no requirement for New Testament believers to give 10% of their gross income to their local church. Travis has proven to you that no such passage in scripture exists. Don’t read into scripture what isn’t there.
If you you want to continue giving 10% of your gross income then that is your prerogative, but would you please call it something else? Perhaps membership dues or just an offering? After all, it is going to pay salaries, mortgages, etc. that were *never* the intent of the OT tithe. Call it what it is.
Oh, and Ribu what you wrote to Patty “if you can’t do it cheerfully, then stop tithing” is contradictory to the principle of the tithe. The tithe of the OT is compulsory. It didn’t matter whether you wanted to do it. You were commanded to do it. It was the law. It would be like me advising (poorly) someone to stop paying their income tax if their heart wasn’t in it. Shouldn’t a tither like yourself counsel Patty to give regardless of how she feels about it? After all, if tithing is being obedient to scripture then not tithing would logically be disobedient to scripture. Why would you advise someone to disobey what (you believe) God commands?
For the record, I give an offering to my local church to pay for the mission of the local church and I do so cheerfully. It is an SGM church so they naturally teach on tithing and expect members to tithe. I choose to give and offering (not tithe) because their pulpit teaching (except on the tithe:-) is a blessing to our family and I believe we all benefit from the fact that the teacher can give studying scripture his undivided interest (well, okay our pastors do have other pastoral duties to attend to…).
Having said that, I do think that our local church is a far cry from the simple church model of the early church and I do believe they like so many countless other churches have allowed the traditions of men and the culture to define what the gathering on the Lord’s day looks like. I often ponder how the funds to pay a church mortgage and a secretary assigned to every pastor might be better used to advance the kingdom. I likely will pursue home church at some point for the simplicity of it and so that I can better direct where God’s money is spent. Until that time I will give an offering to support my local church, but tithe? Never.
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:23 pm
About publishing a book titled TITHING AND ITS CONTROVERSIES, YOUR an encouragement. should you want an update on this you can contact be by mail.
Thanks,
Okorie
September 11th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
I came across this site and it has greatly showed me different insites on tithing. I believe in my heart that know man should be paid for a gift the our God gave to the so freely. God has given to us the greatest gift of all his Son Jesus Christ. God has given the gift to many to pastor to others, and guide us in the direction in which our Heavenly Father wants us to go. I have a big problem with pastors taking a percentage of the chuches income for services rendered that was so freely given by God. When tithing it should be based upon giving according to the word of God. That is for helping thoes that are in need. I gave because I was taught to give this way, but now my vision is so clearly different. I see it so much in todays churches of misuse of funds, I pray that our Father touches every pastors heart that know the truth of tithing to teach the TRUTH. God is and awesome God and he is so worthy to be praised. For them that are lost he will truly guide you in the right direction.
Thanks,
Sonia
October 4th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
It is encouraging to see more and more people waking up to this issue and taking personal responsibility over where their giving goes and how it gets there. The only thing a minister should have any expectation for is a reasonable living if he is serving a congregation, but all of it has to come from freewill offerings according to the Bible. Voluntary tithing is acceptable but distroting the Bible to insist upon tithing is self-centered at best. We are called to the ministry to ease burdens not burden people further. Paul said those who preach the gospel can make their living from the gospel. The church is not a storehouse unless it faithfully meets the needs of the poor and ministers who love their congregations should be compelled by the law of love to live within the same income bracket as the majority of their congregation. That last is my opinion but I think the Bible and the stated law of love bears it out. Paul at times had nothing but the clothes on his back and he never turned to tithing as a commandment. That should both inform us and put fear in the hearts of those who would enslave the weak with dogmatic calls to OT law. Do not defraud your brother in these matters for the Lord is the avenger of all such.
God bless.
November 26th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
It should dawn on the any thinking Christian that if your Pastor/Church Leader is not also promoting that you keep the Sabbath Day which is no work or activity on Friday evening till Saturday at sundown then why are they promoting one Old Covenant law, when all had to be kept to be in right standing with God? In Matthew 23:23 Jesus did not even compliment the Pharisees for tithing and they were still under the Old Covenant law because Jesus had not yet died to fulfill the law for the people He came to redeem from the Curse of the law. Tithing is a manipulation and the fact that the Tithe Mandaters are not teaching to keep any other Old Covenant law, Jewish feast or Jewish Ceremony as in circumcision, dietary laws is proof of it. If anyone cannot see this they are blind leading the blind! Give as you purpose in your own heart, not out of duty or grudgingly for God loves a cheerful giver (not tithe payer). Give Jesus the credit for what he paid in full for you not your works so that you will stop boasting in your own payments!
November 26th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Jesus gave many free promises that God would meet our daily needs if we ask in His name, He gave us His word that it would be done on the condition that we are abiding in Him. He also proclaimed that He came to heal the sick and set the captives free and this was free of charge! By His stripes we are Healed either we are healed here on earth or for eternity in Heaven. Jesus never charged a dime for an answer to prayer and I challenge anyone to find the Scripture for where Jesus charged for a healing or miracle. Salvation is free and so are answers to prayers. I mind up my mind to accept the payment Jesus made by faith and have been more blessed more than when I was keeping an Old Covenant law tithe law out of fear of a curse which applied to a Jewish nation still under the law of Moses. I freely give as I have freely received but not to brag about my tithing record and steal away the attention from the Cross and payment Jesus made!
November 26th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Keep the Sabbath too if you are keeping the tithe law otherwise you are being contradictory and selecting only what suits you!
November 28th, 2009 at 1:31 am
At my church (which is considered a mega-church) the entire month of January is dedicated to teaching about tithing. I have been taught by a pastor that I highly respect that not tithing removes God’s protection and anything from financial devastation to illnesses can occur. I have overdrawn my bank account numerous times in the past in order to make absolutely sure that I tithe. I in no way want to ever not give back to God, or not show my gratitude or praise to Him for all the blessings He has given me.
On the other hand, tithing, at times feels (as an earlier post stated) “a monthly bill” and the guilt, fear, and panic over the issue makes it hard for me to believe it is God calling me to do it. Everything else seems to have such a clear answer.
I do not own anything, everything I have already belongs to Him and He has the power to take it all away or add to it. I am not attached to money, and whatever I am given in my life that is what I was meant to have. I will be fine if I never live in a mansion, own a Louis Vuitton or drive a BMW….I don’t feel comfortable with stuff like that anyway because there are people who are starving and have no clothing, etc.
I just find it so hard to believe that my loving God, my Father would insist that I give Him a certain amount of money every month (like a landlord) or He will not love me or protect me and my family any longer and let us be plagued with illnesses and fall into financial devastation. I am not questioning it out of greed, I am questioning it because I do not have a clear answer from the Holy Spirit about it..a peace in my heart..at least not in the form that it has been presented. I know that if God presented a situation to me where someone was in need and He wanted me to help, I would know right away what He was asking of me and I wouldn’t hesitate.
I will be praying hard about this and asking God to make His desire clear because in the end that is all that matters to me. From zero to 100 whatever he wants me to turn over and to whomever He wants me to turn it over to I will and if I KNOW it is Him, I can’t help but do it cheerfully.
December 11th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
For anyone seeking deprogramming from the tithe or be cursed lie
go to Galatians 3:13 in the New Testament not Malachi which is the Old Covenant instruction to the Jews only.
Repeat Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us on the Cross” If you do not began to see veil fall from your eyes then you have it real—bad!
December 11th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
CHRIST HAS REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW CANCELS OUT ANY CURSE FROM NOT KEEPING THE LAW. GOD ACCEPTS THE PAYMENT JESUS PAID IN FULL WHICH CANCELS ANY DEBT OR PAYMENT YOU ARE OWING. IT IS CALLED FAVOR
(UNEARNED AND NOT DESERVED) BOAST IN THAT AND NOT YOUR TITHE RECORDS!
ALSO KEEP THE SABBATH WHILE YOU ARE BOASTING ON KEEPING THE TITHE LAW BUT OF COURSE YOU WON’T GIVE UP YOUR RECREATION AND HOBBIES FROM FRIDAY NIGHT TILL SATURDAY NIGHT WILL YOU?? HYPOCRITES!
December 11th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Jen you don’t have to pray about what is right in front of you in the word just pick it up and read the New Testament promises because of the cross. Did you know in Acts 15:10 Peter said not to trouble the Gentiles with what he called a yoke of bondage (laws like circumcision and other laws) that neither he or his ancestors could carry. Ever read Romans 8:32 “God did not spare His only Son but FREELY Gave him up for us all therefore He with HIM will surely give us all things
So who can bring a charge against Gods elect?”
You need to read your New Testament and find out what was paid for us on the Cross. Jews could keep the law there were six hundred and thirteen laws that expanded out of the ten that had to be kept under the Old Covenant day and night around the clock. Now the laws are written not on tables of stones but as Jeremiah prophesized it would be written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Stop following the traditions of man and follow the instructions in the word. You would then know that there is not one commandment for Gentiles to tithe under the dispensation of Grace after the payment Jesus made on the Cross. Gentiles were not included in the Old Covenant only Jews were! We have been adopted & grafted into a Covenant with God because of the Cross Paid in full guarantees Salvation and favor free of charge!
December 11th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
Excuse me I meant no one could keep the whole law which is why Jesus had to come and save us from the curse because of breaking the law.
All laws had to be kept not just the tithe law. They have been kept for us by Jesus who stood in our place as our substitute.
Give as you are lead by Gods Spirit. I do and I am really blessed.
You overlooked Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law” It is right there in front of you unless you have a veil over your eyes that is plain and clear!
December 12th, 2009 at 12:04 am
Jen that is good that you respect your Pastor but he is only a man and therefore capable of error. He is not infallible, perfect nor does your Pastor walk on water. What it tells me when I hear people struggling over this issue is that they have not read their Bible in detail esp. the New Testament. When were you a Jew living under the Old Covenant laws in the first place. Simple logic will tell you this Malachi curse does not apply to you or any Gentile. The Apostle Paul never mentioned the word tithe. Did you know he preached grace and not law. The law only pointed to our transgressions of the law to make us see our need for a Savior. If you are speeding down the highway you may feel fine until you see the sign that gives you the speed limit then you become aware that you were in violation of the law by speeding. Paul said the law serves only to bring us to Christ and to receive the Grace and payment he made. Hebrews 8:6 said Jesus is a better Covenant than the Old System of rituals and law keeping. Answer this, do you keep Jewish feast, observances and ritual currently? No you don’t because Christian (Gentiles meaning not Jews)do not recognize the Old because we are under the New Testament law of Grace. I will be praying for you to read your bible with understanding and not just follow the manipulation & teachings of your Pastor who needs money to keep the Mega Church going. Jen me, you, we are the Church. Where two are three are assembled there He (Jesus( is in the midst.
That is His word! Often Gentiles had house Churches. Some places in the world have underground Churches like Communist Countries that are heavily monitored and persecuted have to hid out in homes secretly. A big bldg does not mean God is present. He did not need a big crowd. He only needed 120 at Pentecost in the upper room then they went on to be filled with His Spirit and changed the whole world!
December 12th, 2009 at 12:12 am
Jen, Jeremiah’s prophecy has now been fulfilled for God has written his laws on our hearts not on tablets of stone. Outward rituals and law-keeping was only a type and shadow of the better Covenant of Grace through faith in the payment Jesus made. Once that is accepted with have free access to forgiveness, eternal life and are free to be healed as in He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquity and by His stripes we are healed. Does it say by paying your tithes you are healed? Heck NO! Go and learn what paid in full truly means. It covers 100 percent of any balance we were owing. You do not have to tithe for favor–Jen you got all the favor you needed freely at the Cross. Just ask God in Jesus name and he will do it. That is if you are abiding in Him. I think you truly are!
December 15th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
It isn’t that I haven’t read my Bible, it is just that people interpret it many different ways & both sides have compelling arguments. I will say that over the past few weeks I have changed some things. I have started giving directly to people in need, whom God lays on my heart…. The joy that I have from giving in this way cannot compare to dropping a check in a bucket at church. However, I do feel like I need to continue to support my church but not with a set amount and it will start taking a back seat to the ground level giving that directly helps people in need. I have seen my blessings increase and I truly LOVE God using me to help people like this. I have a peace about this and I truly feel that God is happy with this path.
January 19th, 2010 at 9:48 am
I know it is now 2010, but this has been on my heart to research for a little while. I asked my mom , who is now a pastor, if the Bible says to give 10%, and she said, it does. It made me really furious..lol, but she is my mom , and I have to respect her. I kindly told her, the Bible doesn’t say that, and I believe people have really misused that scripture to “rob” God’s people so to speak..I could go on and on, but this just confirms what I already believe. People are struggling yet still paying tithes, but God’s word clearly says, in all thy getting, get understanding. We need to KNOW God’s word for ourselves.
January 19th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
I can’t believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis. But Im glad he was able to get his five minutes of fame. I found it interesting that he would never answer the questions about financial difficulties. Read 2 Corinthians 9:6-8. The point is Travis, everybody is entitled to believe whatever they believe. Just like Beth said, why be apart of a church if you don’t agree with leadership. You can still care about the other members while attending a church that you are in agreement with. Because the fact of the matter is, you aren’t doing that house any favors by creating conflict and telling others they shouldn’t listen to what the head of that house is teaching.
And you told Beth that she seems to be looking 4 a social club, but look at the reasons you listed for going. I can’t imagine why someone would choose to attend a church they felt was lying to them, and try to be apart of those different ministries if not just to socialize.
And it makes me curious why you chose to blog about this online instead of asking your Pastor to show you what he’s teaching in the word. Is it because you’re afraid he may be able to show it to you, and then you would have to actually pay your tithes. Well I haven’t found in the word where it says its mandatory to pay your tithes. But in 2 Corinthians 9:6-8, it does say that if you sow sparingly, you will reap sparingly. And that the Lord loves a cheerful giver. So if its not for you, than just don’t do it. That’s between you, God, and your finances.
January 19th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
I usually don’t respond to discussions of this such and if it weren’t for some research, I’d never even come across this site. However, I must say that I think this is one of the reasons that so many non believers don’t bother coming to church or getting saved. So many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it. If I were still of the world and listening to Christians claiming most preachers to be liars while poking out their chests trying to prove to everyone how much they know or simply their interpetation of the word(because thats all any of this is), I’d say “why bother” too.
January 19th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
GALATIONS 3:28
January 19th, 2010 at 8:04 pm
Five minutes of fame? Dude (or Dudette)! It’s more like three years …of infamy! Just when I think the post has finally run its course, a new Pharisee comes along and stirs up the pot (and Google’s indexes) all over again.
BTW, I asked my pastor to meet with me to talk about it multiple times over the course of seven months before writing this post. (I let him know when I published it, and he suddenly found time in his schedule to meet with me, less than a week after that.)
BTW, the reasons I listed for going are the only reasons that have any New Testament basis. Go ahead and show me some other Biblical purpose for the ekklesia.
BTW, “the head of that house” is Jesus.
BTW, Jesus went to a place with hostile leaders who were deceiving and enslaving the people under them. Lots of Christians do it, too. It’s called “being a missionary.”
BTW, in his letter to the Corinthians, Paul’s “sowing” is providing financial relief to suffering, poverty-stricken believers in another part of the world. It bears absolutely no resemblance to upgrading sound systems and improving parking lots for our own group’s meeting house. It bears all sorts of resemblance to what I described in my post as the purpose of the tithes, and what Christians ought to be doing with their money now that we’re no longer under the obligation to tithe. Huh. Imagine that!
BTW, you “can’t believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis,” yet you went ahead and did it yourself. Nice. Also, “so many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it”? Good job not being a hypocrite there (since that’s kinda the exact thing you’ve done with both of your comments here).
BTW, Galatians 3:10.
FUN FACT: Some of the worst internet trolls hold leadership positions in their churches.
G’night!
January 19th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
Great galations, what a thread!
And in my experience, the best internet trolls are Christian leaders. They are AWESOME at it!