That’s a question I’ve been asking over the past year. I basically grew up with a “10% of all gross income goes in the offering plate” understanding of Christian giving… but that changed about a year ago, when I began to study the topic in earnest.
For instance, one thing that constantly trips up modern-day Christians is that we fail to remember that the Law given to Moses did not merely outline a religious system… it was a constitution establishing a nation’s government. Thus, we need not only to discern which laws were sacrificial in nature (as Christians, we hold that Jesus Christ is our atonement and makes all other sacrifices—and thus all laws requiring sacrifices—moot), but also whether certain laws were governmental or sacramental in nature. While this may be a simple process with the laws of a “secular” nation, it can get difficult when you’re dealing with a theocracy.
My studies keep drawing me to the same conclusion: God’s eternal Law of Love compels us to serve the poor, but the tithe laws were a form of taxation, and served as the welfare system for Ancient Israel. Thus, these laws only apply to those under the Old Covenant living in geographical Israel.
Deuteronomy 15:7-11 (which I wrote about recently) provides the framework for all God-glorifying giving, and serves as the “spirit of the law” regarding money, possessions and neighbors:
If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye [be evil toward] your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the LORD against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be [evil] when you give to him, because for this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’
The tithes, while a sacrifice to the LORD, were arranged in such a way as to serve as the particular fulfillment of this command with regards to the Levites (as God forbade them from owning land, cf. Deut. 18:1-8), as well as other poor in the Israelites’ midst (Deut. 14:22-29). Additionally, not only here but also in Nehemiah’s time (after two months of working daily with wood, stone, etc. to rebuild the wall around Jerusalem), the reinstated tithe consisted solely of agricultural produce (Neh. 10:35-39).
Now when you begin to question the tithe, the knee-jerk response you often get is a quote from The Most Overused Tithe Verse In The Bible: “Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions.” Congratulations, you have now been labeled a God-robber! However, this is neither faithful exegesis nor Biblical correction. It’s simply propaganda and browbeating. To show you that this is the case, let me share the entire passage with you, and pay attention to what I emphasize:
Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. Bring the full tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the LORD of hosts. Then all nations will call you blessed, for you will be a land of delight, says the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 3:8-12, ESV)
Let me make it perfectly clear: the tithes were never about collecting money for the Temple. Tithing was the means by which a food bank was kept for the poor and needy in Israel.
There is only one passage in all of Scripture which speaks of money in relation to the tithe: Deuteronomy 14:22-29. However, the money is never actually given to the Levite. Rather, it is used only as a convenient form of transport for those who must travel a long distance. Once the tither arrives at Jerusalem, he is commanded to convert the money back into food, strong drink (beer), etc. and to consume these items with the Levite, sojourner, fatherless and widow (that is, those without such provision). And you know what? Jesus mentioned something much like this in Luke’s gospel:
[Jesus] said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:12-14, ESV)
Never, all in Scripture, is a tithe used to pay building and maintenance expenses for a meeting-house or clergy. The tithe is food, and it’s used to feed people—period. Freewill offerings (and/or perhaps a modern-day equivalent to Nehemiah’s “temple tax”) are the only Biblically-approved source of income from which such things as Equipment Upgrades, Insurance, Janitorial Services, Payroll Expenses, Repairs and Maintenance, Utilities, Mortgages, etc. are to be paid.
In contrast to the Old Covenant system, Paul set aside any pastoral “right” to live off the ministry and instead worked additional jobs to provide for his own expenses. He reasoned that he stood to gain no heavenly reward from “simply” preaching the Gospel (1 Cor. 9:15) and must go out of his way to make it a completely free gift if he were to receive anything from the Father because of his work. However, if Paul were simply a “New Covenant priest” he would have been leading the churches into sin by causing them to break God’s Law which required a community to feed its Levites (again, Deut. 18:1-8). Thus, we can infer that Paul did not believe these laws were binding for ministers of the Gospel.
That being the case, a Christian pastor ought not presume to live off of the tithes of his people. If a tithe is requested of the congregation, then Biblically it needs to be food, and it needs to be distributed to people who need food. (Which is to say, faithful application of the tithe laws requires the establishment of a congregational food bank.) Beyond that, there is no Biblical requirement to “lay [any] money at the [pastors'] feet.” (It is certainly encouraged as the decent thing to do for a chap who has given his whole lives to serving you and yours spiritually… but it’s not required.) In and 4, the money laid at the apostles’ feet was “distributed to each as any had need” (Acts 2:44-45; Acts 4:32-35). Likewise, the money collected on Paul’s behalf from the Church in Macedonia, Achaia, and Corinth was going directly to feed the Christians in Jerusalem who were suffering through a famine—not to line his personal “chariot fund.” And of course a meeting-house is nice, but depleting a collected tithe to fund it—or even to keep it lit and climate-controlled—is unbiblical.
So if I don’t think the tithe applies to us today, does that mean I can get away with not giving anything? God forbid! On the contrary, I believe Christians are to “sell [their] possessions, and give to the needy” (Luke 12:33), but are not bound by a 10-33% annual tithe to modern-day Levites per se. The sacrificial system is no longer binding, but I am still bound by the perfect Law of Love: specifically, to “love [my] neighbor as [myself],” (Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 19:19, etc.) and thus to “remember the poor” (Gal. 2:10), “open wide [my] hand to [my] brother, to the needy and to the poor, in [my] land” (Deut. 15:11), “bear with the failings of the weak, and not… please [myself]“ (Rom. 15:1-3, cf. vv. 25-27), and to “contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality” (Rom. 12:13) “that there may be fairness” (2 Corinthians 8:13-15). Sometimes fairness means giving 1%, sometimes 99%.
But the most ironic thing about my tithe law studies is that some of those who are being commanded to “tithe” (give 10% of your gross income) to “the church” (really meaning “the pastors”) are actually poor enough that the pastors are required by God’s Word to be tithing to them.
So in conclusion: Christians are commanded to give to the poor and needy in our midst, but we are not bound by tithe laws. However, even if one were convinced that Christians must tithe, a faithful reading of Scripture insists the tithe be used to feed the poor. It is wholly foreign to the Word of God to use a tithe on buildings, utilities, vacations, insurance or even clothing.
MUCH BLESSING TO YOU I HAVE BEEN PUT OUT THE CHURCH I BEEN TAIKING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT FOR 22 YEARS AND STILL TAIKING WERE EVER I GO THE BIBLE STATES MY PEOPLE ARE DESTOY FOR LACK KNOWELGE MUCH BLESSING TO YOU KEEP UP THE WORK TO SET GOD PEOPLE FREE AND I WILL DO YHE SAME MUCH RESPECT………..
To Whoever Has Time To Read This,
A few quick points, and I hope I’m not repeating points that have already been said (I never read everyone elses opinions, only some).
1) Tithing is not just about the Law of Moses, Abraham tithed before the Law was given, see Genesis 14:18-20.
2) I read earlier that someone said (and I quote),”I am appalled at how many preachers tell their poor sick members to give their first 10% to the church. That is sin and goes against Acts 20:35″ (end quote)
Acts 20:35 says (at the end), “It is more blessed to give than to receive”. If “givers” receive a “blessing” shouldn’t pastors who care about the Church encourage “poor sick members” to give so that they may receive that blessing! Tithing is a great place to start and it is very honoring to the Lord, just like Abraham.
3) According to Acts 2:45; 4:34,35 the New Testament Church gave alot more than 10%.
4) One more thing to remember, tithing is not a “salvation issue” but it is definitely a “heart issues”.
If any one would like to talk more on this my e-mail is GraceandTruthCC@msn.com, and yes, I am a pastor. I teach people to tithe so they may honor and obey the Lord, and the Lord is so faithful to take care of His sheep! Thank you!
Travis, I respect what you have said in your posts and i do understand the 10% as a tithe debat but would like to honestly know how you think Church should be done? I have been in full time ministry for 20 years and am by no means a “Legalist” but have seen way too many people uses your argument as an “excuse” to not give anything at all!
If Churches today functioned by this teaching of yours then in reality you would have no “Chesapeke Community Church” like you currently have to worship in!
I just think it’s a lame excuse for people that want to be greedy with their resources and say it’s an unbiblical principle. If that’s the case then let’s practice the NT teaching of selling everything and giving it to the needy.
The whole point of my rambling post for you is “How does the Bibical model of Church function without the tithe?” kevin
Kevin,
Thanks for joining in on the conversation! (By the way, it’s a conversation which was started here nearly 2 years ago. I left Chesapeake Community Church a few months after penning this post.)
I’m going to address your main question to me, but please go back and make sure you read my entire post (specifically my conclusion). I already addressed some things you seem to think I didn’t, which leads me to believe you didn’t actually read the whole thing. Don’t make me repeat myself, Mister!
So anyway…. How do I think “church should be done”? Well, I suppose the same way that family is “done.” For instance, I’m the spiritual leader in my home. I don’t expect my children to work and give me a portion of their money as compensation for my leadership and training! However, if I or one of their siblings were in need of something—something which they were able to provide—then I most certainly would expect my child to share what they had so that a member of their family didn’t have to go without.
To counter your accusation, I think tithing is just a lame excuse for pastors to be greedy with other people’s resources, and lazy about heeding the Apostle Paul’s clear teaching on the matter:
“Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. And when they came to him, he said to them: ‘I coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. In all things I have shown you that we must help the weak by working hard in this way. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” — Acts 20:17-18,33-35
When Paul says, “we,” remember that he’s speaking to all the elders of the Church (in Ephesus). In other words, the Apostle Paul taught that church elders must work hard, providing for their own necessities, in order to help the weak (rather than being a burden to them).
Y’know, Pharaoh accused the Hebrew slaves of laziness when they cried out for release from the burden of heavy labor and unjust demands which he had placed on them. It’s a pretty common thing for oppressors to do to the oppressed. Be careful not to follow after his example.
I see both sides. I think those that have been hurt due to pastors or leaders abusing the tithe really do look for a reason not to give. I am one of them. I also think the worker is worthy of his wages. Trust me, I have been on full time staff at church. I always felt underpaid (trust me I was). But I also think that before a pastor teaches that we must tithe 10 percent, he should hold at least a part time job and stop relying on the congregation’s tithes to support him. They love to tell us that we need to believe God to provide, but why don’t they believe God for their provision instead of relying on our paychecks?
Um, yes, I have some hurts and it has affected my desire to tithe 10. Its not that giving 10 percent hurts financially. Its that giving 10 percent to people who can afford to travel the world while I am stuck in town working my a– off kind of gets to me. And they need our checks to pay for their luxury vehicles instead of getting a decent used car and increasing offerings to missionaries who really are doing the work of the Lord with little means. Hmmm…pastors have flatscreen tvs and iPods and blackberrys. And they send pennies to our missionaries. No thanks. I’d rather give 10 percent directly to missionaries in Africa and the Philippines.
Yep, this is not a debate. Sorry, I just had to rant.
Hey Travis, thank you very much for the clear information about tithing. Starting about a year ago me and my wife starting having financial trouble as a lot of americans have had latelty. (We Unfortunately go to a church that beats money down your throat). We couldnt afford to tithe for about a year. We have a two year old and had make the choice between eating and tithing, we ate.
After several months my pastor had someone else come and talk to me about not tithing, (apperantly he looks at who tithes). So after this conversation i went to my pastor to speak with him about it. He informed me he was just being a good spiritual father and he was correcting something i was doing wrong, like if your child is misbehaving. I fell for it and tithed with my next pay check,,,, BIG MISTAKE. We almost couldnt pay our rent, we had to barrow money… i knew this was wrong, i just didnt know how to fight it. thank you for speaking the truth..
great blog. first i would lie to say that tithing so you can build a high dollar church is way wrong. helping people out of love is awesome maybe im wrong but i wont pay someone with a degree in theolgy to preach to me. ive seen adds for preachers in papers for six figure salaries, must have a degree to apply with resume????? what is wrong with this picture? scripture tells me that where several are gathered together in jesus’ name there he is also yet this high dollar preacher says im a sinner because im not in his church paying him tithes so he can pay for a new bmw. i give what i can when i can in ways that i feel the good lord has led me to give to. im satisfied i am tithing and will face judjement content that is how jesus intended me to give, out of love instead of coerced by scripture twisting greedy pastors. and by no means do i mean all pastors or churches are this way, but a lot are seen many of them. god bless
I totaly agree with tis Blog..travis..that is the name i gave to my son….go0d job my friend..I would just like to say what cleaned up the tithing issue with me…was what Jesus said when he hung is head on the cross…IT IS FINISHED…NO MORE …special days of observance..no more animal sacrifices…and now we can no longer rob god..because when we become part of his family..whe then distribute HIS wealth not ours…
I did not understand the fool entity of tithing. I knew that it was mentioned in the old testament on several occassions. The realization that I came to was that these people did not have jobs like we presently have today, they believed God and made certain sacrifices and vows to God to be blessed. According to Phillipians 4:16, God said he will supply my every need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So I firmly take God at his word and call it back to his rememberance. Now don’t get me wrong if my bother or sister is in need and I am in a situation to help them I will. I believe that God makes provisions for his children as long as they are living their lives to please him and not man. May God Bless.
CORRECTION FULL NOT FOOL (S0RRY ABOUT THAT)
I did not understand the FULL entity of tithing. I knew that it was mentioned in the old testament on several occassions. The realization that I came to was that these people did not have jobs like we presently have today, they believed God and made certain sacrifices and vows to God to be blessed. According to Phillipians 4:16, God said he will supply my every need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So I firmly take God at his word and call it back to his rememberance. Now don’t get me wrong if my bother or sister is in need and I am in a situation to help them I will. I believe that God makes provisions for his children as long as they are living their lives to please him and not man. May God Bless.
My husband and I have been tithing 10% of our gross income for almost 20 years. We are a one income family (I stay home to home school our kids). We do without cell phones, cable, restaurants, etc., but rarely does a month go by that I am not stressing out about our budget. I have read both sides of the tithing argument. I want so badly to agree with your view, but I almost feel tormented about what to do. If we continue to tithe the way we have, I feel I’m not pleasing God anyway because it is not being done cheerfully, but more because I thought it was commanded. On the other hand, if I don’t tithe, I feel enormous guilt in the pit of my stomach. Please help!
Patty, you really don’t want me (or anyone else here) to “help.” We can put forward our arguments pro and con, but if you do anything because you’re convinced by one or more of our arguments, then that fear and guilt will remain. You need to follow Jesus’ voice — not mine, not another blogger’s, not your pastor’s.
Listen for your Shepherd’s voice–hear what He says, and follow Him–and you won’t have to worry about the bleatings of the other sheep.
No new big developments on this thread. But regardless, let me re-enter this discussion by pointing out that this is a good thread. Its open and honest. I’ve seen a few tithing threads on blogs and boards, but this one is the most interesting. I’d expect the most interesting thread on tithing to be by some big preacher or on Christianity Today or something… but this one is really good.
Patty- if you can’t do it cheerfully, then stop tithing. I advocate tithing, but you are right in that it is worthless if not done cheerfully. God doesn’t want your money without your heart, otherwise its just another monthly bill.
-Ribu
Stumbled across this blog post while reading about tithing.
Travis, you have correctly divided God’s word. Thank you for the presenting the truth in love.
Ribu John and others who believe tithing is scriptural: I’ve read your comments and I’m unconvinced by your position.
As pointed out in this thread many times, there is no requirement for New Testament believers to give 10% of their gross income to their local church. Travis has proven to you that no such passage in scripture exists. Don’t read into scripture what isn’t there.
If you you want to continue giving 10% of your gross income then that is your prerogative, but would you please call it something else? Perhaps membership dues or just an offering? After all, it is going to pay salaries, mortgages, etc. that were *never* the intent of the OT tithe. Call it what it is.
Oh, and Ribu what you wrote to Patty “if you can’t do it cheerfully, then stop tithing” is contradictory to the principle of the tithe. The tithe of the OT is compulsory. It didn’t matter whether you wanted to do it. You were commanded to do it. It was the law. It would be like me advising (poorly) someone to stop paying their income tax if their heart wasn’t in it. Shouldn’t a tither like yourself counsel Patty to give regardless of how she feels about it? After all, if tithing is being obedient to scripture then not tithing would logically be disobedient to scripture. Why would you advise someone to disobey what (you believe) God commands?
For the record, I give an offering to my local church to pay for the mission of the local church and I do so cheerfully. It is an SGM church so they naturally teach on tithing and expect members to tithe. I choose to give and offering (not tithe) because their pulpit teaching (except on the tithe:-) is a blessing to our family and I believe we all benefit from the fact that the teacher can give studying scripture his undivided interest (well, okay our pastors do have other pastoral duties to attend to…).
Having said that, I do think that our local church is a far cry from the simple church model of the early church and I do believe they like so many countless other churches have allowed the traditions of men and the culture to define what the gathering on the Lord’s day looks like. I often ponder how the funds to pay a church mortgage and a secretary assigned to every pastor might be better used to advance the kingdom. I likely will pursue home church at some point for the simplicity of it and so that I can better direct where God’s money is spent. Until that time I will give an offering to support my local church, but tithe? Never.
About publishing a book titled TITHING AND ITS CONTROVERSIES, YOUR an encouragement. should you want an update on this you can contact be by mail.
Thanks,
Okorie
I came across this site and it has greatly showed me different insites on tithing. I believe in my heart that know man should be paid for a gift the our God gave to the so freely. God has given to us the greatest gift of all his Son Jesus Christ. God has given the gift to many to pastor to others, and guide us in the direction in which our Heavenly Father wants us to go. I have a big problem with pastors taking a percentage of the chuches income for services rendered that was so freely given by God. When tithing it should be based upon giving according to the word of God. That is for helping thoes that are in need. I gave because I was taught to give this way, but now my vision is so clearly different. I see it so much in todays churches of misuse of funds, I pray that our Father touches every pastors heart that know the truth of tithing to teach the TRUTH. God is and awesome God and he is so worthy to be praised. For them that are lost he will truly guide you in the right direction.
Thanks,
Sonia
It is encouraging to see more and more people waking up to this issue and taking personal responsibility over where their giving goes and how it gets there. The only thing a minister should have any expectation for is a reasonable living if he is serving a congregation, but all of it has to come from freewill offerings according to the Bible. Voluntary tithing is acceptable but distroting the Bible to insist upon tithing is self-centered at best. We are called to the ministry to ease burdens not burden people further. Paul said those who preach the gospel can make their living from the gospel. The church is not a storehouse unless it faithfully meets the needs of the poor and ministers who love their congregations should be compelled by the law of love to live within the same income bracket as the majority of their congregation. That last is my opinion but I think the Bible and the stated law of love bears it out. Paul at times had nothing but the clothes on his back and he never turned to tithing as a commandment. That should both inform us and put fear in the hearts of those who would enslave the weak with dogmatic calls to OT law. Do not defraud your brother in these matters for the Lord is the avenger of all such.
God bless.
It should dawn on the any thinking Christian that if your Pastor/Church Leader is not also promoting that you keep the Sabbath Day which is no work or activity on Friday evening till Saturday at sundown then why are they promoting one Old Covenant law, when all had to be kept to be in right standing with God? In Matthew 23:23 Jesus did not even compliment the Pharisees for tithing and they were still under the Old Covenant law because Jesus had not yet died to fulfill the law for the people He came to redeem from the Curse of the law. Tithing is a manipulation and the fact that the Tithe Mandaters are not teaching to keep any other Old Covenant law, Jewish feast or Jewish Ceremony as in circumcision, dietary laws is proof of it. If anyone cannot see this they are blind leading the blind! Give as you purpose in your own heart, not out of duty or grudgingly for God loves a cheerful giver (not tithe payer). Give Jesus the credit for what he paid in full for you not your works so that you will stop boasting in your own payments!
Jesus gave many free promises that God would meet our daily needs if we ask in His name, He gave us His word that it would be done on the condition that we are abiding in Him. He also proclaimed that He came to heal the sick and set the captives free and this was free of charge! By His stripes we are Healed either we are healed here on earth or for eternity in Heaven. Jesus never charged a dime for an answer to prayer and I challenge anyone to find the Scripture for where Jesus charged for a healing or miracle. Salvation is free and so are answers to prayers. I mind up my mind to accept the payment Jesus made by faith and have been more blessed more than when I was keeping an Old Covenant law tithe law out of fear of a curse which applied to a Jewish nation still under the law of Moses. I freely give as I have freely received but not to brag about my tithing record and steal away the attention from the Cross and payment Jesus made!
Keep the Sabbath too if you are keeping the tithe law otherwise you are being contradictory and selecting only what suits you!
At my church (which is considered a mega-church) the entire month of January is dedicated to teaching about tithing. I have been taught by a pastor that I highly respect that not tithing removes God’s protection and anything from financial devastation to illnesses can occur. I have overdrawn my bank account numerous times in the past in order to make absolutely sure that I tithe. I in no way want to ever not give back to God, or not show my gratitude or praise to Him for all the blessings He has given me.
On the other hand, tithing, at times feels (as an earlier post stated) “a monthly bill” and the guilt, fear, and panic over the issue makes it hard for me to believe it is God calling me to do it. Everything else seems to have such a clear answer.
I do not own anything, everything I have already belongs to Him and He has the power to take it all away or add to it. I am not attached to money, and whatever I am given in my life that is what I was meant to have. I will be fine if I never live in a mansion, own a Louis Vuitton or drive a BMW….I don’t feel comfortable with stuff like that anyway because there are people who are starving and have no clothing, etc.
I just find it so hard to believe that my loving God, my Father would insist that I give Him a certain amount of money every month (like a landlord) or He will not love me or protect me and my family any longer and let us be plagued with illnesses and fall into financial devastation. I am not questioning it out of greed, I am questioning it because I do not have a clear answer from the Holy Spirit about it..a peace in my heart..at least not in the form that it has been presented. I know that if God presented a situation to me where someone was in need and He wanted me to help, I would know right away what He was asking of me and I wouldn’t hesitate.
I will be praying hard about this and asking God to make His desire clear because in the end that is all that matters to me. From zero to 100 whatever he wants me to turn over and to whomever He wants me to turn it over to I will and if I KNOW it is Him, I can’t help but do it cheerfully.
For anyone seeking deprogramming from the tithe or be cursed lie
go to Galatians 3:13 in the New Testament not Malachi which is the Old Covenant instruction to the Jews only.
Repeat Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us on the Cross” If you do not began to see veil fall from your eyes then you have it real—bad!
CHRIST HAS REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW CANCELS OUT ANY CURSE FROM NOT KEEPING THE LAW. GOD ACCEPTS THE PAYMENT JESUS PAID IN FULL WHICH CANCELS ANY DEBT OR PAYMENT YOU ARE OWING. IT IS CALLED FAVOR
(UNEARNED AND NOT DESERVED) BOAST IN THAT AND NOT YOUR TITHE RECORDS!
ALSO KEEP THE SABBATH WHILE YOU ARE BOASTING ON KEEPING THE TITHE LAW BUT OF COURSE YOU WON’T GIVE UP YOUR RECREATION AND HOBBIES FROM FRIDAY NIGHT TILL SATURDAY NIGHT WILL YOU?? HYPOCRITES!
Jen you don’t have to pray about what is right in front of you in the word just pick it up and read the New Testament promises because of the cross. Did you know in Acts 15:10 Peter said not to trouble the Gentiles with what he called a yoke of bondage (laws like circumcision and other laws) that neither he or his ancestors could carry. Ever read Romans 8:32 “God did not spare His only Son but FREELY Gave him up for us all therefore He with HIM will surely give us all things
So who can bring a charge against Gods elect?”
You need to read your New Testament and find out what was paid for us on the Cross. Jews could keep the law there were six hundred and thirteen laws that expanded out of the ten that had to be kept under the Old Covenant day and night around the clock. Now the laws are written not on tables of stones but as Jeremiah prophesized it would be written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Stop following the traditions of man and follow the instructions in the word. You would then know that there is not one commandment for Gentiles to tithe under the dispensation of Grace after the payment Jesus made on the Cross. Gentiles were not included in the Old Covenant only Jews were! We have been adopted & grafted into a Covenant with God because of the Cross Paid in full guarantees Salvation and favor free of charge!
Excuse me I meant no one could keep the whole law which is why Jesus had to come and save us from the curse because of breaking the law.
All laws had to be kept not just the tithe law. They have been kept for us by Jesus who stood in our place as our substitute.
Give as you are lead by Gods Spirit. I do and I am really blessed.
You overlooked Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law” It is right there in front of you unless you have a veil over your eyes that is plain and clear!
Jen that is good that you respect your Pastor but he is only a man and therefore capable of error. He is not infallible, perfect nor does your Pastor walk on water. What it tells me when I hear people struggling over this issue is that they have not read their Bible in detail esp. the New Testament. When were you a Jew living under the Old Covenant laws in the first place. Simple logic will tell you this Malachi curse does not apply to you or any Gentile. The Apostle Paul never mentioned the word tithe. Did you know he preached grace and not law. The law only pointed to our transgressions of the law to make us see our need for a Savior. If you are speeding down the highway you may feel fine until you see the sign that gives you the speed limit then you become aware that you were in violation of the law by speeding. Paul said the law serves only to bring us to Christ and to receive the Grace and payment he made. Hebrews 8:6 said Jesus is a better Covenant than the Old System of rituals and law keeping. Answer this, do you keep Jewish feast, observances and ritual currently? No you don’t because Christian (Gentiles meaning not Jews)do not recognize the Old because we are under the New Testament law of Grace. I will be praying for you to read your bible with understanding and not just follow the manipulation & teachings of your Pastor who needs money to keep the Mega Church going. Jen me, you, we are the Church. Where two are three are assembled there He (Jesus( is in the midst.
That is His word! Often Gentiles had house Churches. Some places in the world have underground Churches like Communist Countries that are heavily monitored and persecuted have to hid out in homes secretly. A big bldg does not mean God is present. He did not need a big crowd. He only needed 120 at Pentecost in the upper room then they went on to be filled with His Spirit and changed the whole world!
Jen, Jeremiah’s prophecy has now been fulfilled for God has written his laws on our hearts not on tablets of stone. Outward rituals and law-keeping was only a type and shadow of the better Covenant of Grace through faith in the payment Jesus made. Once that is accepted with have free access to forgiveness, eternal life and are free to be healed as in He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquity and by His stripes we are healed. Does it say by paying your tithes you are healed? Heck NO! Go and learn what paid in full truly means. It covers 100 percent of any balance we were owing. You do not have to tithe for favor–Jen you got all the favor you needed freely at the Cross. Just ask God in Jesus name and he will do it. That is if you are abiding in Him. I think you truly are!
It isn’t that I haven’t read my Bible, it is just that people interpret it many different ways & both sides have compelling arguments. I will say that over the past few weeks I have changed some things. I have started giving directly to people in need, whom God lays on my heart…. The joy that I have from giving in this way cannot compare to dropping a check in a bucket at church. However, I do feel like I need to continue to support my church but not with a set amount and it will start taking a back seat to the ground level giving that directly helps people in need. I have seen my blessings increase and I truly LOVE God using me to help people like this. I have a peace about this and I truly feel that God is happy with this path.
I know it is now 2010, but this has been on my heart to research for a little while. I asked my mom , who is now a pastor, if the Bible says to give 10%, and she said, it does. It made me really furious..lol, but she is my mom , and I have to respect her. I kindly told her, the Bible doesn’t say that, and I believe people have really misused that scripture to “rob” God’s people so to speak..I could go on and on, but this just confirms what I already believe. People are struggling yet still paying tithes, but God’s word clearly says, in all thy getting, get understanding. We need to KNOW God’s word for ourselves.
I can’t believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis. But Im glad he was able to get his five minutes of fame. I found it interesting that he would never answer the questions about financial difficulties. Read 2 Corinthians 9:6-8. The point is Travis, everybody is entitled to believe whatever they believe. Just like Beth said, why be apart of a church if you don’t agree with leadership. You can still care about the other members while attending a church that you are in agreement with. Because the fact of the matter is, you aren’t doing that house any favors by creating conflict and telling others they shouldn’t listen to what the head of that house is teaching.
And you told Beth that she seems to be looking 4 a social club, but look at the reasons you listed for going. I can’t imagine why someone would choose to attend a church they felt was lying to them, and try to be apart of those different ministries if not just to socialize.
And it makes me curious why you chose to blog about this online instead of asking your Pastor to show you what he’s teaching in the word. Is it because you’re afraid he may be able to show it to you, and then you would have to actually pay your tithes. Well I haven’t found in the word where it says its mandatory to pay your tithes. But in 2 Corinthians 9:6-8, it does say that if you sow sparingly, you will reap sparingly. And that the Lord loves a cheerful giver. So if its not for you, than just don’t do it. That’s between you, God, and your finances.
I usually don’t respond to discussions of this such and if it weren’t for some research, I’d never even come across this site. However, I must say that I think this is one of the reasons that so many non believers don’t bother coming to church or getting saved. So many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it. If I were still of the world and listening to Christians claiming most preachers to be liars while poking out their chests trying to prove to everyone how much they know or simply their interpetation of the word(because thats all any of this is), I’d say “why bother” too.
GALATIONS 3:28
Five minutes of fame? Dude (or Dudette)! It’s more like three years …of infamy! Just when I think the post has finally run its course, a new Pharisee comes along and stirs up the pot (and Google’s indexes) all over again.
BTW, I asked my pastor to meet with me to talk about it multiple times over the course of seven months before writing this post. (I let him know when I published it, and he suddenly found time in his schedule to meet with me, less than a week after that.)
BTW, the reasons I listed for going are the only reasons that have any New Testament basis. Go ahead and show me some other Biblical purpose for the ekklesia.
BTW, “the head of that house” is Jesus.
BTW, Jesus went to a place with hostile leaders who were deceiving and enslaving the people under them. Lots of Christians do it, too. It’s called “being a missionary.”
BTW, in his letter to the Corinthians, Paul’s “sowing” is providing financial relief to suffering, poverty-stricken believers in another part of the world. It bears absolutely no resemblance to upgrading sound systems and improving parking lots for our own group’s meeting house. It bears all sorts of resemblance to what I described in my post as the purpose of the tithes, and what Christians ought to be doing with their money now that we’re no longer under the obligation to tithe. Huh. Imagine that!
BTW, you “can’t believe so many of you people actually sat here and debabted with Travis,” yet you went ahead and did it yourself. Nice. Also, “so many so-called Christians are too busy arguing (or debating) the word rather than spreading it”? Good job not being a hypocrite there (since that’s kinda the exact thing you’ve done with both of your comments here).
BTW, Galatians 3:10.
FUN FACT: Some of the worst internet trolls hold leadership positions in their churches.
G’night!
Great galations, what a thread!
And in my experience, the best internet trolls are Christian leaders. They are AWESOME at it!
I found your site because I’m always trying to read more on this subject. Yours is the first that hits all that I found in the Bible for myself nearly 2 years ago. Many that I found hits several of these points, but adds weird stuff that is more opinionated commentary than actual scripture, so I was happy to run across your post.
One thing I’ve never understood is how people can say that we are free from all the old laws except this one. You know, Jesus also told the sick man in Matt 8:1-4 to go and offer a sacrifice, but no one uses THAT as an excuse to offer up an animal as sacrifice.
If anyone really reads the New Testament for themselves it becomes impossible to see that this is more of a picking and choosing of the old laws that none of us are under anymore.
I got the Matt 23:23 verse flashed up on the projector screen for a while when I was still attending the big church. Noticeably absent (and represented with … in it’s place) was WHAT was mentioned what the Pharisees tithed. Sorry, but that’s just underhanded.
I’ve even heard that if we don’t tithe, we aren’t forgiven. Why? Because we are paying for our salvation?
As far as how a church is supposed to run without relying on the 10% income they can rely on from their members instead of receiving in faith (like they tell us to do as we fork over our children’s lunch money for tithe), well, I suspect that our churches should look more like what Paul had going on. I find it appalling that we are to go out and make disciples of all men, but those of us not at the head of a large church are expected to do so because it’s an all consuming flame of passion that we have in our savior, but that pastors of large churches get to claim payment for their “obeying” part of the commandment. How is that NOT like a Pharisee?
And the cheerful giver verse? Well you have to read the WHOLE verse:
“Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give WHAT HE HAS DECIDED IN HIS HEART TO GIVE, not reluctantly or UNDER COMPULSION, for God loves a cheerful giver.
-2 Corinthians 9:6-7
No mention of HOW MUCH to give, only HOW to give–generously and what you decided in your heart to give. Yet this has been quoted at that church I stopped going to as a reason to tithe 10%. The Pastor actually said that it meant that if you give you WILL be cheerful, so give and be cheerful.
Anyway, I hate the thought of stirring the pot on this blog again in 2010, as I’m sure that after 3 years you’re probably ready to let it die down. But, what you said and how you handled the comments (in the early years–that last one was a bit snappish, though understandably so–the hypocrisy of mentioning it in my own somewhat snappy comment is not lost on me, I promise) is an example to us all. And, you guided us all biblically–you ONLY quoted what was in the bible, AND you told us to search it out ourselves. We should all be doing that.
This is important work you’ve started. You’re going to face naysayers a lot. But, none of these naysayers have quoted any of the references in context to the meaning. You have.
Now, onto your other posts…
i recently joined the lds church(mormon) i am on disability social security ever since i started tithing i have borrowed from cash advance to make up what i cant pay my bills i was poromissed by membewrs of the church if i tithed GOID would bless me and i would be able to pay the bills with the blessiongs he would give me i asked GOD for forgiveness fir not tithing and felt a release from him yet i wanted to go to the temple and was told i could not becquse i missed a month of tithing GOD himself ask me to join this church when i ask for help i.e. electric bill and now i have no water i was told that the church encourages us to ask family members i am not keen on my family i already owe 800.00 to a foster brother to fix car and furnace how can a person show proof to a church soooo set on making its people tithe that it hurts the poor people yes i have spent money on buying birds to start a buiseness i could not do this if i was to tithe i can not sleep because of this pproblem help thank u DONNA LEE
Here is a great short article by John MacArthur on this subject.
http://www.christianity.com/Christian%20Foundations/Theological%20FAQ/11532196/
A lot has been said about the issue of tithe. I have struggled with it myself thinking am i bringing myself under the law again if i tithe and if i don’t tithe the next time i am subjected to a curse. I have always comforted myself with Galatians 3:13 about ” Curse is everyone that is hung on a tree ” . He Himself took upon our curse for wrongdoing. I have battled on several ocassion on whether i should give to a brother in need or an institution that is the ” church “. For many of us giving is not an issue but under what spirit ?
David:
A lot of pro tithes people use Abraham as an example to justify tithing but you need to read the whole part. Abraham gave 10% of what he got back from the war and the other 90% he gave back to the rightful owners. This was a one time act and Abraham never personally gained anything from this war but he also never gave anything from his own resources, at least I haven’t found where its recorded. I beleive in church organization both corporately and spirtually. I beleive a church should operate responsibily, fiscally and in a business like manner and where there is also freedom of worship. I beleive the church memberhip should support the operations of the church work, including a full time pastor salary through their
personal abilities, skills and financial support. I use the words financial support because tithes in the scriptues was agriculturally based and I haven’t found where agriculture has been changed to money but if you know where the change happened I would like to know because it seems like thats where the argument comes into this type of discussion.
Well Travis, I’m not a pastor and will not receive in any way. I’m a giver. I am lucky enough to make a lot of money (in Belgian terms, americans have way more) but here’s the thing. Churches aren’t that big in belgium. and I’m talking on average 30 people. There’s an extreme anti religious spirit in belgium. Our church isn’t that big yet even, with average 15 people half of those are students without an income. My pastor works for his own needs. But tell me something, do you think it’s fair that our pastor litterally works from the break of dawn to almost midnight daily and still has an income so low that he has to pray to God every month that he’ll get by. The bible says the worker is worthy of getting payed. But we also need a ‘social security’ if you will for the poor and the widows and let’s not forget, the rent for the church building needs to be payed (you can argue that this should’n't come from tithes but it has to come from somewhere or else we have no building) . Tithing is a good principle a good start. But if you all can’t have the love to give to your pastors and the needy. Or worse, if you’re yammering about giving 10% of your income back to God who technically already owns all of it. Then you need to look yourselves in the mirror and see if you like the person you’re seeing. I remember a scripture where this old and poor lady gives almost all she has, it wasn’t a lot, but it was to her and Jesus was very positive about her. The only reason pastors need to use the tithing arguement (which in our church is not used to pay the pastor nor do all the people actually tithe, probably few actually do) is because the people are too selfish to give the pastor what’s coming to him. And does that mean he needs a mercedes, no ! But he needs to be able to at least get by. FYI Paul didn’t want to take the money they were offering him. But read 1 Timothy 5 17-18 : Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” As for the peoeple who can’t tithe cheerfully, then don’t do it. Imagine going to God and saying and don’t wanna give you this;, but I guess I have to. I’m sure he’ll be overjoyed.
Travis, i also have been worried over the this issue and its effect on my income\savings and actually giving to the needy/family members. from my point of view i think in the time of Moses and Malachai where the issue of tithing is more pronounced, the people of israel were under stiff economic periods, that they needed a collective effort not just to build the temple of God but provide for the needy, so the issue of Tithing was the only means for total cooperation from all the citizens. it was a form of our present day taxation to support our government. but after these periods of turmoil there was no need for these payments, hence the coming of Christ to abolish all these laws and show us a different view of God the Father and provider. I stay at home with my mum and sometimes im not able to pay my stipends for the up keep of the house, and she does it without blinking an eye, so i wonder if my earthly mum could do so, then i wonder why i must be warned that the all loving Father proffessed by our all accepted saviour Jesus, would send devourers any month i dont pay my tith as preached…
Thank you for your article – it surely is a “sour” topic to say the least. I have been struggling with the tithing issue for a while – i am fully aware that EVERYTHING I have comes from God and I thank Him daily for all my blessings. Im a single mother of 2 working full-time. The biggest issue with tithing is that the pastor of the church I attend earns a salary of $1MM year plus over $200,000 for expenses (allegedly related to traveling to spread the Word of God, etc). The pastor has said that his salary amount is awarded by a group of individuals who research compatible salaries of other pastors in similar churches. Why not go to another church?? Because then I’m labeled a “church hopper” and in the town I live in (Miami, FL), it seems the norm for most churches (feel free to recommend a Bible-Teaching Church in this area). I do admit, my church has an AMAZING kid’s program and though it is mostly ran by volunteers. I have been tithing (again, very challenging being a single mother) but my reasoning is that it belongs to God and I want to be in obedience with His word. However, I feel that due to the pastor’s extravagant lifestyle, salary, etc., maybe my tithing should go elsewhere e.g. St. Jude’s Children’s Hospital or to friends/family members of mine that I know are struggling to make ends meet – but is this something God approves of – any insight on this would be greatly appreciated. And of course the selfish part of me says “why should I continue to contribute to someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I struggle at times raising my 2 kids” … I know of a family at our church that was recently left homeless and I don’t recall the church providing them with monetary assistance nor asking the congregation for a special donation, things like that I don’t understand.