On The Other Hand

1 | Anonymous

August 16th, 2005 at 10:47 pm

I don’t mean to be a jerk, but what do you think of Matthew 6:5 and 6:6 in relation to your blog?

2 | Travis

August 16th, 2005 at 11:08 pm

That if that were to be taken to mean what you imply it means, Jesus would be contradicting what he said just verses earlier — and in the same sermon, for that matter — in Matthew 5:14-16:

"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven."

The point isn’t whether people see what you do, but who gets the glory for it. =)

3 | Anonymous

August 18th, 2005 at 5:47 pm

I personally believe that by ‘light’ he meant that combination of awareness and spirit now commonly known as “Self.” How many people deny their Self for fear of others? When we become humble and open our Self and heart to others then we will shine.

4 | Travis

August 22nd, 2005 at 1:29 pm

Do you have any textual analysis that leads you to this conclusion? What leads you to “personally believe” he meant that? (You see, when I wrote my “why I used ‘the second mouse’” post, I in no way implied it’s what the author of the saying meant by it. I simply twisted and molded it for my own purposes. You ,however, are claiming Jesus meant what you’re saying… so it would be helpful if you could point toward any evidence of that.)

For what it’s worth, I personally believe that by posting comments anonymously you mean to hide (and thus deny) your “Self” for fear of others.

You can select the “Other” option in the “Choose an identity” section below the comment box and enter a name whether you have a web page or not.

5 | Tulip

August 22nd, 2005 at 2:35 pm

When did Not Even A Hint’s title get changed?

Anyway, thanks for posting this review, I didn’t know this book existed but it’s now on my “to get” list I’ve read the other ones you’ve mentioned!

-Tulip

6 | Travis

August 22nd, 2005 at 2:38 pm

Tulip (thanks for identifying yourself!),

Josh explains the re-naming in his own blog entry, "New Title and Cover."

7 | theophilusa

September 28th, 2005 at 4:41 pm

I just found your link thru Thais’ livejournal.

I am immediately suspicous when Piper talks of giving glory to God - or anyone else actually, on that subject. Just because it is sort of the most indisputable part of any creed so it’s important to define it well, and most people don’t, to be frank. I don’t say I have a great definition myself. But let’s start with questioning those who say they do. What is Piper’s definition? In his “Christian Hedonism” he tries to say that true pleasure is found exclusively in God, like a salesman persuading a buyer to invest. I think he is wrong by the way, to use the term “hedonism” for the title of his argument and not because it’s offensive to my sensibility (as he guesses in the book itself) but because hedonism is most definitely *not* about sacrifice and self-control, those essential elements of christian discipleship. Hedonism is about pleasure, sheerly, and definitely does not accept persecution, for example. Piper completely misuses the word when he tries to attach it to his theology. This appropriation is ignorant at best, dishonest at worst.

Many of the books which Piper reportedly reviews in his Sex and Supremacy book are naive. Now I am a committed christian, but I think that there is far too much shallow-narrowmindedness in popular-christianity. I believe that our sexuality is a gift meant to be kept for God, meaning approached with pious appreciation as all things.

But ask Teresa of Calcutta, glorifying God does *not* mean a conscious effort all the time. Surely, as she says, to love the Lord your God with all your Heart, all your Soul, and all your Mind, “is the command of the great God and he cannot command the impossible.” Yet she confesses a practical inability to keep her mind on God while she went about her work; and she contented herself with seeing God in the poor, in the ones she served, and working for and out of love.

Now I haven’ read Piper’s book but I have a sneaky suspicion he doesn’t call serving ones partner sexually a means to glorify God. Correct me if I’m mistaken here.

8 | Travis

September 28th, 2005 at 5:18 pm

First off, thank you for including not only a name, but a link as well! I really do appreciate it. =)

“I just found your link thru Thais’ livejournal.”

Not sure who that is… someone in the theologia community? Oh well. =/

“…hedonism is most definitely *not* about sacrifice and self-control, those essential elements of christian discipleship. Hedonism is about pleasure, sheerly, and definitely does not accept persecution, for example.”

Here I must sharply disagree with you. Sacrifice and self-control… why ought we sacrifice? Why ought we exhibit self-control? Why ought we accept persecution? “you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.“ (Hebrews 10:34b, ESV) In other words, the reason they joyfully accepted this persecution was because they had a greater source of pleasure.

Another instance… when Jesus is telling his disciples to take up their cross and follow him, how does he seek to convince them to do so? “Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.” In other words, you ought to ‘lose your life’ so that you can really keep it!

Sacrifice and self-control, as ends to themselves, “have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.” (Colossians 2:23, ESV) It is only through seeing Jesus Christ as the only source of joy—and pursuing that joy—that our “practical” pursuit of holiness will succeed. (And since it is only the Holy Spirit who can give us a desire to seek after Jesus for our joy, it is only by the grace of God that we can do it.)

“Many of the books which Piper reportedly reviews in his Sex and Supremacy book are naive.”

I really don’t get what you intended to say here. If you’re referring to the “breakout session” chapters, those aren’t reviews, but rather the authors of those books contributing chapters (related to their books) to his own.

Now I am a committed christian, but I think that there is far too much shallow-narrowmindedness in popular-christianity.

I think it’s only committed Christians who are able to see and admit that. =)

“Now I haven’ read Piper’s book but I have a sneaky suspicion he doesn’t call serving ones partner sexually a means to glorify God. Correct me if I’m mistaken here.”

Very well! Well, okay, you got me: he calls serving one’s spouse sexually a means of glorifying God. Any sexual activity outside of marriage is sin, plain-and-simple, and cannot glorify God.

In fact, the chapter contributed by C.J. Mahaney is all about a man serving his wife through sex, and the chapter by his wife, Carolyn, is all about the women serving their husbands that way.

Did that help at all? =/

9 | theophilusa

September 30th, 2005 at 6:18 am

Thankyou for your fair, and even gracious, reply.

I disagree with you only on one matter of opinion, which I admit may be wrong since I haven’t read Piper’s book ‘Christian Hedonism’ for a few years. From my memories he touted Hedonism as a sales-pitch rather than a proper identification, because as you say, Christ himself endured death by crucifixion for the glory of the father, who then exalted him by raising him from the grave and gave him a name…yes, you know the rest of the story!
But the philosophy of hedonism as I understand it permits no crosses and seeks to avoid bothering with the need for resurrection that way - however foolishly, for they can give no answer to the ubiquitous problem humans face; of death.
If it weren’t for my mortality, I can tell you what I’d be; I’d be a Hedonist plain and simple. Hell, I am sometimes even when I say I’m a practicing christian. But confessions aside, Christianity and Hedonism are mutually exclusive ways of life. Hedonism cannot tolerate a crucified Messiah.

10 | Travis

September 30th, 2005 at 10:26 am

Well, I think Piper uses the phrase “Christian hedonism” primarily for shock value. (BTW, I think the book you’re referring to is Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist. You can read the whole thing online at DesiringGod.org) He doesn’t mean to put a Christian “veneer” over the philosophy of hedonism, necessarily. Rather, he wants us to realize that, as Blaise Pascal once said, “All men seek happiness without exception. They all aim at this goal however different the means they use to attain it….They will never make the smallest move but with this as its goal. This is the motive of all the actions of all men, even those who contemplate suicide.”

Thus, the purpose of “selling” Christian hedonism is to fight against the idea that Christianity is ultimately about pain and suffering and loss (which is what sacrifice and self=control are, if you’re just looking at this life).

It’s like having a savings account or a retirement plan: we set aside some of what we have now (sacrifice and self-control) so that we can enjoy it later. If there would never be a point at which the retirement account would be used, the sacrifice to contribute to it would be a waste.

So the idea Piper is trying to convey is that we all seek happiness already — whether in sex or drugs or singing hymns, we’re all hedonists in a sense. Piper’s distinction is that some things will only give a short spurt of pleasure (sin), but others lead to “pleasures forevermore” (Psalm 16:11). That, he would say, is the difference between “worldly hedonism” and “Christian hedonism” — the latter pursues pleasure like Christ did, “who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2)

11 | Second Mouse » What is the "Light of the World"?

December 23rd, 2005 at 1:42 pm

[...] In the comments for my review of Sex and the Supremacy of Christ, I quoted a portion of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount (basically his "Kingdom of Heaven Manifesto") in which he says this: "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." — Matthew 5:14-16 (ESV) In response I received the following anonymous comment: I personally believe that by ‘light’ he meant that combination of awareness and spirit now commonly known as "Self." How many people deny their Self for fear of others? When we become humble and open our Self and heart to others then we will shine. [...]